Model 1900 Luger - Page 3

Vlim · 07-02-2003, 07:35 AM

imho the discussed gun simply shows a life of thorough use during the last 103 years or so...

The modifications, like barrel replacement, removal of inscriptions (or perhaps corrosion damage?), modification of the main spring to coil spring sound more like a gun that has been used quite a lot and has been kept in a useable state in less-than-perfect conditions.

wterrell · 07-02-2003, 08:00 AM

The upper portion of the pistol is pristine. No nicks, dings, scratches, etc. This pistol has had no use at all. It has been stored. Take a close look at the large pictures. Beautiful upper portion to this gun.
The heat applied to it is recent.

Ron Wood · 07-02-2003, 08:16 AM

Janne & Gerben,
I had abandoned the Dutch connection for precisely the reasons stated. The Dutch modification was a dovetail and silver solder attachment, not welded.

jasafn · 07-02-2003, 08:16 AM

The pistol looks much better than in the pictures. It is not so grey/brown as I am not a photographer and the pictures need to be fit down to 180kb from 500 or so.
I can tell there was no inscriptions removed. This pistol in not a fake. I am absolutely sure about that. The person itÃ?Â´s from, the price I paid and all the offers from collectors who have hold and examn it tells me it is worth of quite a lot even it have been reworked. I know many items in USA have been faked and all collectors must be more and more careful specially with rare items.

This pistol was once repaired to be used perhaps in war. Both sides of grip frame shows lot use of this pistol. I believe the leaf spring broke off and it was repaired by using P08 parts and shot off barrel was replaced that same time.

I will take some more pictures this coming evening.

Vlim · 07-02-2003, 08:26 AM

Hi,

Hi,

What I meant by 'used' is that the guns shows signs of being shot quite a few times, notice the marks where the toggleknobs touched the frame and the toggle link struck the back of the frame.

I think the best (and only) way to trace back the history of the gun is to do just that. Tracing back previous owners might yield some clues as to how/where/when/what/why it ended up in the state it is now.

I do agree with Wes that the value is lowered by the modifications it received. In my opinion the current value may be set because of a certain curiosity factor and not an originality factor. Further documentation of the history of this piece might increase that curiosity factor, of course.

wterrell · 07-02-2003, 11:45 AM

Lowered?
I know of one 10000 series pistol with a price tag of $22,000.
This pistol under consideration at present is worth about $200. to a parts dealer.
I should say it is lowered!
Again, take a look at the pristine condition of the upper portion of this pistol, the trigger plate, the trigger guard, the side of receiver, etc. This pistol was pristine. The shooting is most probably of late by some 'collector' who just had to be a part of its history by running a couple thousand rounds through it.
This pistol was in storage for 90% of its life.

Do not bash American collectors. The ruination of this pistol was not by an American!

jasafn · 07-03-2003, 02:14 AM

Grip frame front:
http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/10006frameFront.jpg

Grip frame front other view:
http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/10006frame2.jpg

Grip frame inside view:
http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/frameInside.jpg

Notice the spce made to fit the replaced spring and holes that were done for the pin.

The main spring system that was placed to this pistol. The welded beams were holding the coil spring and other welding was around the pin.

http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/...mainspring.jpg

About the "pristine" condition of the upper. Well as none of you have seen the pistol I need to tell my valuation of the bluing of the "pristine" parts. ItÃ?Â´s about 80%. The barrel it came with have nearly no signs of use.

Point of Wes came clear, I hope he keeps out of the topic. I am very dissapointed the attitude this topic have faced. Propably I came to wrong forum to ask help.
I can sell or trade the piece to biggest private firearms museum of Europe (in Finland) and they have seen the pistol with the main spring rework in place.

jasafn · 07-03-2003, 02:19 AM

Sorry, one picture did not open. try this:

http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/...rameInside.jpg

Vlim · 07-03-2003, 06:58 AM

Hi J,

I would believe that the curiosity value if this gun far exceeds the $200 estimate

, but at the same time I also believe that this gun will not go into the $20000+ price range.

The scenario you sketched looks plausible enough, but as I said before, the only answers will come through thorough research of the past of the gun.

The only question that I have is the weird looking front of the frame. It looks slightly bent and it does bear traces of some correction work applied to it. My initial thought was indeed removal of engravings, but after studying the left side of the frame I've abandoned that thought. Could the deformation be the result of placing the grip in a vice in order to perform the welding/modification work to the mainspring?

If the person who replaced the spring did a dodgy job, could that also explain quite rough handling of the frame while performing the modification?

I've been welding thin sheet metal of cars together for quite a bit and I can't imagine that 'normal' welding would cause the front of the frame to be bent like that. Perhaps a torch was used? A torch spreads the heat over quite a large area, rather than arcwelding, and this could explain the front gripstrap deformations.

Randall M. Bessler · 07-06-2003, 05:57 PM

FYI. The Right Side Detent shown in the photo is for a 'Pushbutton' Stock. I have a correct stock on my website, 'collectorfirearms.us' under 'Luger Items', #LI-110 @$2495. It looks right to me, although it needs work. Is it available for sale?
Thanks!
Randy Bessler

Ron Wood · 07-06-2003, 06:01 PM

Thanks for the confirmation Randy. Since I have never owned a 10000-series Luger, and probably never will, I wasn't sure that I was seeing a detent. I have been envying that stock for a long time and wishing I had the proper Luger to justify buying it. You state on you website that the stock is numbered internally...do you know what the number is?

Ron Wood · 07-11-2003, 11:57 AM

jasafn has been kind enough to respond to my request for additional pictures of his 1900 Luger with the detent in the stock lug for the early push-button stock attachment. With his permission they are presented for your information. You might want to save these photos in your archive of Luger reference material as you probably wonÃ¢??t encounter an example again, but if you do you will know what you are looking at. These images have been "thumbnailed" so you may click on them for full-sized images. Enjoy

<a href="http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/10006DetentCloseup1.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/10006DetentCloseup1.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>

<a href="http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/10006DetentCloseup2.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/10006DetentCloseup2.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>

John Sabato · 07-11-2003, 12:36 PM

GREAT photos! What kind of camera was used jasafn?

07-02-2003, 08:00 AM	#42
wterrell User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Colorado Posts: 1,096 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	The upper portion of the pistol is pristine. No nicks, dings, scratches, etc. This pistol has had no use at all. It has been stored. Take a close look at the large pictures. Beautiful upper portion to this gun. The heat applied to it is recent. __________________ Noli me vocare, ego te vocabo, wes --------------------

07-02-2003, 08:16 AM	#43
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 6,986 Thanks: 1,065 Thanked 5,088 Times in 1,674 Posts	Janne & Gerben, I had abandoned the Dutch connection for precisely the reasons stated. The Dutch modification was a dovetail and silver solder attachment, not welded. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

07-02-2003, 08:16 AM	#44
jasafn User Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Finland Posts: 18 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	The pistol looks much better than in the pictures. It is not so grey/brown as I am not a photographer and the pictures need to be fit down to 180kb from 500 or so. I can tell there was no inscriptions removed. This pistol in not a fake. I am absolutely sure about that. The person itÃ?Â´s from, the price I paid and all the offers from collectors who have hold and examn it tells me it is worth of quite a lot even it have been reworked. I know many items in USA have been faked and all collectors must be more and more careful specially with rare items. This pistol was once repaired to be used perhaps in war. Both sides of grip frame shows lot use of this pistol. I believe the leaf spring broke off and it was repaired by using P08 parts and shot off barrel was replaced that same time. I will take some more pictures this coming evening. __________________ Janne S. FINLAND

07-02-2003, 11:45 AM	#46
wterrell User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Colorado Posts: 1,096 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Lowered? I know of one 10000 series pistol with a price tag of $22,000. This pistol under consideration at present is worth about $200. to a parts dealer. I should say it is lowered! Again, take a look at the pristine condition of the upper portion of this pistol, the trigger plate, the trigger guard, the side of receiver, etc. This pistol was pristine. The shooting is most probably of late by some 'collector' who just had to be a part of its history by running a couple thousand rounds through it. This pistol was in storage for 90% of its life. Do not bash American collectors. The ruination of this pistol was not by an American! __________________ Noli me vocare, ego te vocabo, wes --------------------

07-03-2003, 02:14 AM	#47
jasafn User Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Finland Posts: 18 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Grip frame front: http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/10006frameFront.jpg Grip frame front other view: http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/10006frame2.jpg Grip frame inside view: http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/frameInside.jpg Notice the spce made to fit the replaced spring and holes that were done for the pin. The main spring system that was placed to this pistol. The welded beams were holding the coil spring and other welding was around the pin. http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/...mainspring.jpg About the "pristine" condition of the upper. Well as none of you have seen the pistol I need to tell my valuation of the bluing of the "pristine" parts. ItÃ?Â´s about 80%. The barrel it came with have nearly no signs of use. Point of Wes came clear, I hope he keeps out of the topic. I am very dissapointed the attitude this topic have faced. Propably I came to wrong forum to ask help. I can sell or trade the piece to biggest private firearms museum of Europe (in Finland) and they have seen the pistol with the main spring rework in place. __________________ Janne S. FINLAND

07-02-2003, 07:35 AM	#41
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,032 Thanks: 1,018 Thanked 3,873 Times in 1,184 Posts	imho the discussed gun simply shows a life of thorough use during the last 103 years or so... The modifications, like barrel replacement, removal of inscriptions (or perhaps corrosion damage?), modification of the main spring to coil spring sound more like a gun that has been used quite a lot and has been kept in a useable state in less-than-perfect conditions.

07-02-2003, 08:26 AM	#45
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,032 Thanks: 1,018 Thanked 3,873 Times in 1,184 Posts	Hi, Hi, What I meant by 'used' is that the guns shows signs of being shot quite a few times, notice the marks where the toggleknobs touched the frame and the toggle link struck the back of the frame. I think the best (and only) way to trace back the history of the gun is to do just that. Tracing back previous owners might yield some clues as to how/where/when/what/why it ended up in the state it is now. I do agree with Wes that the value is lowered by the modifications it received. In my opinion the current value may be set because of a certain curiosity factor and not an originality factor. Further documentation of the history of this piece might increase that curiosity factor, of course.

07-03-2003, 02:19 AM	#48
jasafn User Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Finland Posts: 18 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Sorry, one picture did not open. try this: http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/...rameInside.jpg __________________ Janne S. FINLAND

07-03-2003, 06:58 AM	#49
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,032 Thanks: 1,018 Thanked 3,873 Times in 1,184 Posts	Hi J, I would believe that the curiosity value if this gun far exceeds the $200 estimate , but at the same time I also believe that this gun will not go into the $20000+ price range. The scenario you sketched looks plausible enough, but as I said before, the only answers will come through thorough research of the past of the gun. The only question that I have is the weird looking front of the frame. It looks slightly bent and it does bear traces of some correction work applied to it. My initial thought was indeed removal of engravings, but after studying the left side of the frame I've abandoned that thought. Could the deformation be the result of placing the grip in a vice in order to perform the welding/modification work to the mainspring? If the person who replaced the spring did a dodgy job, could that also explain quite rough handling of the frame while performing the modification? I've been welding thin sheet metal of cars together for quite a bit and I can't imagine that 'normal' welding would cause the front of the frame to be bent like that. Perhaps a torch was used? A torch spreads the heat over quite a large area, rather than arcwelding, and this could explain the front gripstrap deformations.

07-06-2003, 05:57 PM	#50
Randall M. Bessler User Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Carson City, Nevada. U.S.A. Posts: 19 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	FYI. The Right Side Detent shown in the photo is for a 'Pushbutton' Stock. I have a correct stock on my website, 'collectorfirearms.us' under 'Luger Items', #LI-110 @$2495. It looks right to me, although it needs work. Is it available for sale? Thanks! Randy Bessler

07-06-2003, 06:01 PM	#51
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 6,986 Thanks: 1,065 Thanked 5,088 Times in 1,674 Posts	Thanks for the confirmation Randy. Since I have never owned a 10000-series Luger, and probably never will, I wasn't sure that I was seeing a detent. I have been envying that stock for a long time and wishing I had the proper Luger to justify buying it. You state on you website that the stock is numbered internally...do you know what the number is? __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

07-11-2003, 11:57 AM	#52
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 6,986 Thanks: 1,065 Thanked 5,088 Times in 1,674 Posts	jasafn has been kind enough to respond to my request for additional pictures of his 1900 Luger with the detent in the stock lug for the early push-button stock attachment. With his permission they are presented for your information. You might want to save these photos in your archive of Luger reference material as you probably wonÃ¢??t encounter an example again, but if you do you will know what you are looking at. These images have been "thumbnailed" so you may click on them for full-sized images. Enjoy <a href="http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/10006DetentCloseup1.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/10006DetentCloseup1.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a> <a href="http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/10006DetentCloseup2.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/10006DetentCloseup2.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a> __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

07-11-2003, 12:36 PM	#53
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,150 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	GREAT photos! What kind of camera was used jasafn? __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*