Model 1900 Luger

[Imperial Arms]

According to one image, the grip safety area has not been filled in, but the grip safety is obviously missing.

I notice that the stock lug is not for a push button stock because I do not see any notch on the outer edge. Ron, your comments would be welcome on this point.

The '1', '2' and '5' at various locations have nothing to do with the serial number and I have observed similar numbers on other early Lugers. Probably it has something to do with an assembly line or an inspector. Also notice the 'good old flaming bomb proof' just under the chamber!

It is unfortunate that the barrel is removed or missing as well as the finish having been affected by the use of an improper protecting product. Apparently, the straw is strong on various parts which is inconsistent to the quality of the blue which demonstrates that a wrong product was applied to the pistol.

Hopefully, with the right steps, the pistol could be returned to its original configuration and properly restored.

Cheers,
Albert

[jasafn]

Here is two grip safeties. One in right is the reworked that came with pistol. This is the barrel that was removed. This may cut the wings of speculations of Dutch-rework ( or I will never buy anything made in Holland)

<a href="http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/10006gripsafety.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/10006gripsafety.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>

[jasafn]

Other side of the reworked grip safety. Notice the wider soldered plate on the original part. Safety catch has a pin that operates in the hole that is made thru grip safety. This way side safety works without grip safety function. Ofcourse grip safety spring and a jut on side of grip safety were removed.

<a href="http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/10006oldgripsafety.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/10006oldgripsafety.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>

[jasafn]

This picture gives idea how the main spring modification was done.
Notice the area behind magazine well that bears heat marks. Middle of that you find melted place. Both sides over the main springs notch was welded iron supports that hold the P08 spring and spindle. There was P08 joint-hook attached with pin thru rear grip frame to operate between spindle and toggles "S-hook"

<a href="http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/10006frameL.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/10006frameL.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>

[Ron Wood]

Albert
Wow! This is what I call a â??story book Lugerâ?�. If you could read all the information displayed, what a story it would tell.

I was a bit surprised that the stock lug looks very much like the later stock attachment style. However, I am still grasping at straws hoping that more details can be uncovered. Upon looking at the close up photo of the right side of the Luger, it appears that a detent may be machined into the top of the slot of the lug that would be engaged by the push-button catch. This would be a departure from the notch on the outer edge, but as you have pointed out, it appears that no two of these 10000-series have identical stock attachments. The lug definitely has had the cam notch cut into the back of the lug, possibly as a later modification to accommodate a standard stock. Or perhaps this one used the anterior cam notch originally. Who knows unless the original stock turns up?



I am not sure there is a â??flaming bombâ?� proof on the chamber. Looking closely, most of the rounded marks look like various strikes of the â??2â?� inspectors stamp.



Janne,
Thank you for the additional pictures. The safety modification was clever, but thankfully it did not require any modifications to the frame and the original type safety can be installed.

[John Sabato]

Thanks guys for a REALLY interesting discussion. This model Luger and this particular specimen certainly has a history that would fill a book.

Too bad this one is in Finland... Getting Thor to work his restoration magic on it would be great!

[wterrell]

Let us see a pic of the front grip strap.
This may give a clue as to the origin of the stock lug.
The metal of this pistol is extremely good. No dents or scratches.

Judging from the pics, I suspicion that the bottom 2/3 of the grip has been welded on (replaced). This is totally just a suspicion. Wish I had it in my hand so that I could examine it closely. I believe that it was not left 'reblued' because of the weld being exposed by the rust blue process. This is just my suspicion.
I am most probably dead wrong!

Gentlemen,
The more I look at jasafn's last pic post, the more I am convinced that the lower 66% of the grip has been replaced by a welded on grip.

[wterrell]

Gentlemen,
This is bogus!
The discoloration is from heat.

I will post a few pic shortly.

[wterrell]

<a href="http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/wels_frameL.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/wels_frameL.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>

<a href="http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/weld_right.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/weld_right.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>

<a href="http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/weld_back_strap.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/weld_back_strap.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>

[wterrell]

The front grip strap is filed flat! It should show to the front of the grip panel on a profile view!

Radius at back lower of trigger guard is not round, and indicates trouble shaping the front grip strap.

[wterrell]

Front grip strap should be much more rounded and protrude further forward of the wooden grip panel.

[wterrell]

This pistol is worth absolutely nothing!

[John Sabato]

I would agree with Wes that the modifications of the front strap are extremely suspect... probably the result of filing to remove a unit marking... or as he has theorized... to dress down the welding from a grip replacement.

A shooter... the collector value has plummeted due to the gunsmithing...

just my

[Ron Wood]

Wes,

What about the up front disclosure that a coil spring modification had been welded into the frame and was removed? What about the early 10000-series serial number that properly has a stock lug? What about in additon to the weld marks, the holes made to support the bell-crank assembly for the coil spring remain as evidence of the modification? What about the fact that it would require an equally rare 1903/04 Navy grip safety old model frame with stock lug to replace the "bottom 2/3 of the grip", or do you think maybe that several pieces have been welded together to create a leaf spring frame with stock lug rather than one big 2/3 chunk?

You may very well be right, but the above questions come to mind. It just seems that if this is an attempt to create a "bogus" piece it is a pretty clumsy attempt. I think I will take your very considered obsevations under advisement, pursue if the presence of the stock detent is/is not actually there or if it is an illusion in the photo, await other responses, and reserve judgement until then. I understand your doubt in this age of widespread faking of scarce guns, but I guess I am still na�¯ve enough to think sometimes things are what they seem to be, and hope against the odds that occasionally a heretofore lost rare example turns up. It is fun when it does and not unexpected when it doesn't.

[John Sabato]

Did a little computer darkroom magic and the negative version of this photo clearly shows the discoloration from welding that Wes described...

<a href="http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/Weldingnegative.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/Weldingnegative.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>

[wterrell]

Ron,
I do not believe in the conspiracy of fakery that chokes the collecting community. I have heard men at gun shows discuss the imprint of this or that stamp, size of lettering, evidence of overstamping, ad nauseum, ad hysteria. It is repulsive.
This present example pictured above is so clumsily executed that I cannot help but come to the conclusion of heavy handed tampering in an attempt to reproduce what a person has seen as genuine, not knowing that his pistol had just as much value in its original state as some high priced example of different configuration.
If pictures disclose this botched welding job so easily, there is no telling what a hands on examination would confirm.

[Ron Wood]

Thanks Wes, your points are well taken and I agree the paranoia is repulsive.

I do not deny the frame has been welded, I guess I just think the welding may have only involved the coil spring modification. An old model frame with a stock lug requires much more fabricaton than just grafting on the lower 2/3 of the frame. Multiple weld sites would be apparent, particularly in the area of the stock lug. If the addition of the stock lug to an old model frame was done so skillfully as to be difficult to detect, why was the upper portion so "botched"?

As to the front strap protrusion beyond the grip, I think that is more the fault of the fit of the replacement grip than the frame. The frame at that point is almost paper thin and it would be difficult to flatten it that much and not cut through it.

I think I will still wait and see a while longer.

[wterrell]

Ron,
I can appreciate your consideration of the stock lug and front grip strap. I also look forward to the input of others who will digest this pistol more closely than I. My respect of your opinion has caused me to stand down from this discussion for a while.
Regards,
wes

[jasafn]

Wes and other X-files fans,

This pistol has no re-attached gripframe. I am not blind, stupid or person who tries to spoil great hobby with fakes or untrue stories. Maybe I need to take more pictures of the piece. Front part of grip frame have no heat marks. Take a look.

http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/10006frameF.jpg

Ofcourse rear part of grip frame has heat marks... there was some metal pieces attached by welding.

[Vlim]

Hi,

With reference to the Dutch mainspring modification: Two notches were filed from the 'struts' behind the magazine, where a machined bridge was fitted in. The 'Dutch' modification required no welding.