Russian Lugers at Phoenix Investment Arms

[sheepherder]

Originally Posted by Imperial Arms

For example, my web site Imperial Arms is straight forward and the items in my collection are under the category 'Personal Collection'.

...???...Then the ones under the category "Interesting Firearms" on your site aren't your collection???

That is disappointing...Those are the ones I like to read about...Like how a prototype was selected (or modified for acceptance) or rejected...or even stories about how it came to be in the owner's possession (like the looting of the FN plant in Belgium)...or even personal stories...

My Godfather had a double barrel rifle/shotgun (one barrel each) and a Mauser 98K rifle that [according to him] he picked right off the assembly line when his unit overran the facility that housed them (sorry; I don't recall where) during WW II...He brought both of them home with him...Sadly, he passed on while I was serving overseas and it's unknown which son-in-law (3 daughters; all divorced) ended up with them...

It's that kind of anecdote that I enjoy reading...

[Vlim]

I have to disagree with your interpretation that my European nationality (German) has nothing to do with a better understanding about Lugers.

Albert, I remember reading somewhere that you were not able to read or speak German well?

Ah, found your reference.

I wish that my German language was better, but even with my limited German, I am learning everyday what the Germans stood for during the imperial era and I am also proud of this quality.

[worldoftone]

I don't know a whole lot about Lugers in general, but I find this thread highly entertaining.

- WOT

[sheepherder]

Originally Posted by worldoftone

I don't know a whole lot about Lugers in general, but I find this thread highly entertaining.

- WOT

+ 1

At Albert's suggestion(s), I am trying to wade through his dissertations, both here and at Jan Still's Forum (the theory seems the same, but of course the responses differ) and am finding it heavy going...

...And I am still exploring the Spandau Luger and Death's Head Luger threads over there, of which there are many, and in one of which Jan has posted links to several old threads...

All fascinating stuff, and as WOT noted...highly entertaining...

[Imperial Arms]

Originally Posted by Vlim

Albert, I remember reading somewhere that you were not able to read or speak German well?

Ah, found your reference.

Hello Vlim,

You are correct that I do not read or speak German (very little), however, some of my fellow collectors in Europe have been very helpful to me providing translations and other valuable information.

My parents raised me with English while we were living in Africa in some French speaking countries. My French is modest to good and I wish that I could have learned German.

Albert

[Imperial Arms]

Originally Posted by worldoftone

I don't know a whole lot about Lugers in general, but I find this thread highly entertaining.

- WOT

I am glad that you are enjoying it. However, there are some stubborn critics who are afraid of the truth after various information is weighed. They are going to continue to rely on weak information and excuses.

Albert

[Imperial Arms]

Originally Posted by Edward Tinker

PS: I did read your writings on the russian guns, but I am not convinced that russian contracts don't exist. I have always felt they were a small contract and the earliest books talk about them being a contract (but then they talk about mexican lugers too, and I don't beleive in any of them)

Hello Ted,

Let me try and 'break it down for you' with reference to my two articles which strongly discounts the 'Russian Luger' theory:

1. Anchor symbol = Navy division/organization;
2. Crossed swords symbol = Cavalry division/organization;
3. Crossed canons symbol = Artillery division division/organization;
4. Crossed rifles symbol = Infantry division/organization.

The 'M1906 Russian Luger' has 100% Bulgarian markings.

The 'Russian Luger' is in a contract pistol and was not for commercial sales. There is nothing on it which ties it directly to Russia - only confusion.

If you are saddened that the 'Russian Luger' is crumbling, I am sorry to disappoint you. Nonetheless, you can continue to be a critic and that is your choice. Until I learn or hear something which is stronger, I am sticking to the 'Bulgarian theory' which makes more sense. Explain to me your reasons why it is a 'Russian Luger' without any emotion and imagination, or making reference to 'those earliest books' - which ones and who wrote those books?

Check this out - I hope that I don't 'shot myself in my foot' by saying that the M1906 Portuguese Navy Contract Lugers were instead a Spanish contract (when I happen to have an outstanding Portuguese Royal Navy rig in my collection)!! (just kidding) Using your line of thought, why not?

Albert

[Imperial Arms]

Originally Posted by postino

+ 1

At Albert's suggestion(s), I am trying to wade through his dissertations, both here and at Jan Still's Forum (the theory seems the same, but of course the responses differ) and am finding it heavy going...

...And I am still exploring the Spandau Luger and Death's Head Luger threads over there, of which there are many, and in one of which Jan has posted links to several old threads...

All fascinating stuff, and as WOT noted...highly entertaining...

Hello Rich,

It would be wonderful and satisfying if collectors would use a sensible and simple way of thinking (so you don't need to ), but this is not the case. There will be some 'old stubborn goats' who will be critics, but that's alright. It just needs time for it to sink in - it is like politics!

The quicker you adopt to a logical and historical way of thinking, the faster you will learn. And keep away from the 'sharks' who want to misinform you and put their hand in your pocket. Of course, the phrase "I wish...." makes us collectors excited, but it is a anti-climax when it turns out to be false.

Good luck,
Albert

[Imperial Arms]

Originally Posted by postino

...???...Then the ones under the category "Interesting Firearms" on your site aren't your collection???

That is disappointing...Those are the ones I like to read about...Like how a prototype was selected (or modified for acceptance) or rejected...or even stories about how it came to be in the owner's possession (like the looting of the FN plant in Belgium)...or even personal stories...

My Godfather had a double barrel rifle/shotgun (one barrel each) and a Mauser 98K rifle that [according to him] he picked right off the assembly line when his unit overran the facility that housed them (sorry; I don't recall where) during WW II...He brought both of them home with him...Sadly, he passed on while I was serving overseas and it's unknown which son-in-law (3 daughters; all divorced) ended up with them...

It's that kind of anecdote that I enjoy reading...

Hello Rich,

I wish I was a multi-millionaire to own everything depicted on my web site Imperial Arms. Those items under the category 'Interesting Firearms' are items I have photographed in other personal collections and museums.

I apologize if the images only have a title when the mouse is over the image, without including a headline and a detailed description. When I have the time and new web design software, I shall make an effort to improve and update the presentation and entertaining aspect of my web site. In the mean time, I shall instead present information on the forums which collectors and quickly find and read.

Enjoy,
Albert

[Imperial Arms]

Originally Posted by Edward Tinker

I know you have been talking about LOB, which I hold the same opinion, although I do not know the website owner. It has pretty guns, but not always accuarate information.

The owner of LOB is Charles Whittacker who is a loyal believer and supporter of Geoff Sturgess, who (GS) wants to be recognized as the 'Pope'.
Ed

"And I mean no offense, but I find it odd that you display guns with no information? I simply do not understand the reasoning there? Saying, well, if folks want to know more they should ask, is a bit; well weird."

For example, it the past 10 years, I have only received three questions about my Cartridge Counter, of which two questions have been "is it for sale?". Although I am flattered by such a question, why should I write something about these pistols on my web site when I shall not receive any intelligent questions?

"Why display them"

I created my web site in early 2001 and I did not have the time to continously update it with new material while gathering information for my book project on the Mauser C96. Displaying such guns gives collectors the idea of what is still surviving and what items might still be discovered.

"I mean they are very rare guns aren't they? So display them and teach at the same time is my feeling? But its your website and you can do as you want."

I agree that it is important to educate new and seasoned collectors, but I cannot juggle many things at the same time. I shall bear it in mind to update my web site in the near future. In the next update of my web site (or I shall add it instead to the forums), I shall show you fellows the finest and most complete genuine M1917 LP-08 rig - it will make you cry! I need to bring everything together and I still have the parts in different countries.

"I will re-read the thread / informational article you wrote on the russian lugers and see if I simply read it too fast and missed something."

That would be a good idea - chew before you swallow!

I enjoy participating on the forums which have lead me a few times to some great stuff, and I shall continue to share my knowledge with other collectors who share the same energy as me.

Cheers,
Albert

[sheepherder]

Originally Posted by Imperial Arms

The quicker you adopt to a logical and historical way of thinking, the faster you will learn. And keep away from the 'sharks' who want to misinform you and put their hand in your pocket.

Yes indeed...It seems every collector considers themself "The Authority" when it comes to questions on their interests...

When you come right down to it, the best advice is...

Trust...No One...

[Vlim]

Check this out - I hope that I don't 'shot myself in my foot' by saying that the M1906 Portuguese Navy Contract Lugers were instead a Spainish contract ((when I happen to have an outstanding Portuguese Royal Navy rig in my collection)!! (just kidding) Using your line of thought, why not?

Come to think of it, I recently picked up a box of 9mm para that came from Spanish storage and dated from the Spanish civil war. It was filled with ammunition made in Portugal and by DWM in Berlin.

So be careful what you wish for

Anyway, back on topic.

The key points sofar that point towards Bulgarian rather than Russian origin in my opinion are:

-The markings are Bulgarian, not Russian.
-During the contract years, Bulgaria was severing it's ties with the Ottoman (Turkish) empire.
-Early documents, including one from Hans Tauscher, of 1906, and of the Swiss KTA, of 1911 only mention Bulgarian contracts, not Russian.
-Bulgaria had enough Mosin-Nagants to validate the use of M-N rifles on the chamber.

The issues that need to be resolved are.
-The fact that DWM was not allowed to sell to Bulgaria between 1907 and 1914 as a result of a cartel agreement with Steyr.
-No historical record of these lugers in contemporary Russian and Bulgarian documents found sofar.
-No recollection by August Weiss about these contracts, which suggest that, if they took place, they took place long before WW1.

Some consolidation:
-Bulgarian archives appear to be well preserved.
-Cartel agreement between Steyr and DWM means that DWM could only deliver to Bulgaria with approval of Steyr: Hence, possible proof in Steyr / Austrian archives.
-Russian archives are well preserved as well.

The bad news:
-DWM archives used to light the stove and as improvised kleenex during crisis times.
-Most of us lack Bulgarian and Russian language capabilities.

[alanint]

Could they have announced these pistols as being destined for Russia and not Bulgaria in order to circumvent their agreement with Steyr?

It would not be the first time this has occured

[Vlim]

Possible, perhaps, but I don't think so.

There is a comparison possible with a Mauser contract for Serbia (Mauser, being the daugher company of DWM, was subjected to the same rules). Since Mauser had already delivered rifles to Serbia before the cartel agreement, they were allowed, through Steyr, to deliver an additional amount of some 32,000 rifles to Serbia during the cartel period.

Since DWM had already delivered to Bulgaria before the agreement, it is safe to assume that if DWM did deliver to Bulgaria between 1907-1914, they followed the same process as Mauser: i.e. delivery with full support of Steyr.

Of course, Steyr would be compensated for the transactions.

[Imperial Arms]

Hello Vlim,

I am glad to read that you are on the 'Bulgarian theory' side, but notice how the critics will continue to cling on to the 'Russian theory' without being able to put forth any strong information! If early documents ("including one from Hans Tauscher, of 1906, and of the Swiss KTA, of 1911 only mention Bulgarian contracts, not Russian") do not mention a Russian contract, what are the critics trying to believe and hope for?

Albert

[sheepherder]

I've decided that I simply have to have a Russian Luger...Now that I have a good idea of what to look for...

Let's see what GB and GA have to offer...

Oww...Only one on GB...

Luger, DWM,1906 Russian contract, 9mm

Description for Item # 146584853

This one of the rare Lugers for the Luger collector. This is one of 1000 that was manufactured by DWM for Russia in a 1906 contract. This gun is number 44X. This pistol has a "CAL 9MM" marked magazine. The pistol is in excellent condition. It has been professionally restored and it is correct, including the extractor. I have personally seen five Russian Lugers, but I am sure there are a few more. Thank you for looking and good luck bidding. Bank transfer, checks, PayPal or credit cards are accepted, but there is a 3 percent charge if paid by Paypal or credit card. Thank you for looking.

No Reserve...Starting Bid $6500...

Oww...he has a Royal Portuguese Navy 1906 contract Luger starting at $6500 too...

Wow...Should I pull my bid off that Borchardt and get one of these???...Decisions, decisions...

OK, let's look at GA...

GA has one...

1906 RUSSIAN CONTRACT

ALL ORIGINAL 1906 LUGER, NO RESTORATION,95% BLUE, 65% STRAW,ALL NUMBERS ARE MATCHING INC. MAG,THIS RARE LUGER IS CERTIFIED BY TWO WORLD RENOWED LUGER EXPERTS,(DOCUMENTS AVAIL )DWM SCROLL,NO STOCK LUG,GRIP SAFETY,CROSSED NAGANT RIFLES,SAFETY IN CYRILLIC,GOOD BORE,NICE MATCHING GRIPS,MAG BOTTOM ONE HALF EAR MISSING,THREE DIGIT SER # 5XX,ONLY 6 ( NOW 7 ) SAMPLES HAVE BEEN REPORTED. THIS IS ONE OF THE RAREST LUGER IN ANY COLLECTION./////////THIS GUN IS NOW IN THE COLLECTION OF AN OTHER GREAT LUGER COLLECTOR AND I WILL DEARLY MISS IT ///

Price = $15,555.00

I'll pass on that one...No pics...

Let's try AA...

Humph!!! No Russian Contract Lugers on AA...

I'll have to email for more pics on that GB Russian Contract Luger...

Here's the top - pic attached...

DWM, crossed M-N rifles on chamber, grip safety, no stock lug...looks good so far...

[Imperial Arms]

Rich,

You should instead play the stock market!! I guess the 'Russian Luger' is getting your juices flowing!

Good luck,
Albert

[sheepherder]

Originally Posted by Imperial Arms

Rich,

You should instead play the stock market!! I guess the 'Russian Luger' is getting your juices flowing!

Good luck,
Albert

Albert -

I searched GB, AA, and GA for "Bulgarian Contract Luger", but except for this barreled receiver, there weren't any...

(Well, there was one, but it was so buffed out that you couldn't see any of the markings)...

[Imperial Arms]

Rich,

You need to read up on the Bulgarian variations:

1. M1900/03 Bulgarian in caliber 7,65 mm;
2. M1906 Bulgarian in caliber 7,65 mm (some rebarreled to 9 mm);
3. M1908 Bulgarian (as shown in your previous post);
4. M1908 Bulgarian Infantry Officer's Model (ex-Russian Luger).

That should give you something to chew on and hopefully make you realize the Russian Luger is sinking fast.

Enjoy,
Albert

[the gunman]

Albert I must say it's a true pleasure reading your posts.
thank You

Richie