1906 DWM factory presentation

[Vlim]

Many companies, arms resellers, gun smiths and jewellers offered the possibility to engrave just about anything with just about any form of engraving.

Below is a sample shown from a 1907 catalog of 'Manufacture Francaise d'Armes et Cycles'. Note the style of the engravings (and the pricing in Francs).

[alvin]

Vlim -- Thanks for the ad. I heard French is not far away from English.... but obviously that's far away from fact. If possible, could you translate those service items on the ad into English. I am very curious about the engraving cost at the beginning of 20th century. Thanks.

[Pete Ebbink]

Hi Ron,

It could be as simple as the folks doing the final lay-out of pages 50-51 in Kenyon's book made a mistake and mocked-up the wrong photo for the text...and it was not caught by the proof-reader...???

SOS in KY is not on my dance-card...I am working that week in NE State.

[Pete Ebbink]

Alvin,

Here are two more "polished" thumb safety area photos to compare...

[Pete Ebbink]

Anna,

An "in-the-white" frame interior by itself may not indicate a factory-original finish.

There have been in the past and there are some very skilled re-finishers still currently working...that do not make that mistake on guns that should be "white".

The recreation of the "polished" area under the thumb safety is also a pivotal sign of their rework skills. Some do it well so as to go undetected...others are still struggling with the technique.

[StarOfTheWest]

Thanks Pete.

I totally understand the skepticism this gun is being greeted with.
Really, I do.
And I would not expect any less from this most discerning group of collectors.
But no hard feelings at all.

I am going to have to let the gun speak for itself in the hands of one of our most sharp eyed experts from the board at some time, to pass final judgement.

What I see in person, in strong light, is not what the pics are showing.

I just don't see any evidence of refinish here, live, in person.

I could be wrong, but I don't think I am.

I just hate drama, and am not known enough to have my opinion taken seriously in the collector community yet.

If it can be proven to me, beyond the shadow of a doubt, that I am wrong, I will accept it gracefully.

But the gun must be seen in person, the detail pics don't look like the gun I have in my hands.

Patina and striations are a tough thing to get pics of.

[alvin]

I looked at the two pictures that Pete posted aboved. Here is my summary of observation and understanding on the polished thumb safety area.... please correct me if I am wrong:

I have higher level of confidence on the first one:

(1) The edge pointed by the red arrow should be perfectly straight (and it is);
(2) The curve pointed by the blue arrow should be perfectly round (and it is);
(3) The edge pointed by the green arrow should be straight but very slightly blured than the top edge pointed by the red arrow (and it is);
(4) The pink encircled area has a very small unpolished area (and it is);
(5) The depth of polished area is very very shallow (and it is);
(6) No gun blue, nor too marks in the polished area... this area is usually ignored for oiling.... expect patina, light rust or even pits (and it is);

I have a question regarding the "ding" encircled by the white circle -- it has gun blue inside.... if it's a ding (e.g. hit by a nail), I did not see the rough edge around it, where did the metal go? It does not look like a pit either, because it's single and very shallow. I did not any reason to test steel hardness on this area either.

So, what is it? Could it be parts hiting each other in the bluing process and left this tiny mark?

[alvin]

Sorry, forgot the marked picture. Here it is:

[Pete Ebbink]

Alvin,

That is probably a hardness test spot...in the area you circled in "white".

Similar to our Rockwell hardness test. Probably done before final sanding and bluing.

You see those on various guns from time to time...probably evidence of a random test sampling of metallurgy of parts on the factory floor as part of their QA/QC process.

The Swiss liked doing such a lot. I have two M1929 Bern Lugers that must have 6-8 of them, apiece, on each gun and another M1929 without any of the "dots". I would WAG that DWM and Mauser and maybe others tested parts from time to time as well...

The edge of the area you show in "red" will usually show a slight cut of the milling pass. You can feel this cut edge with your finger. The frame is blued and then the polished area is milled/cut to create the polished area.

Sometimes you can see/feel that "cut" along the green and blue areas as well.

That shows in the 2nd. photo I posted.

I think it just depends on how deep they set up for the milling cut/pass and if the gun was held truly square in the holding jig or not.

Here is a different view of the "cut" on the same gun in the 2nd. photo above...a M1900 DWM-Swiss...

[Pete Ebbink]

Anna,

Glad you will have some folks look at your gun in person. That is always the best.

BTW...Ron Wood made this excellent posting about what patina is and what causes it in the past.

Thought you might enjoy the read :

http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthre...t=patina+photo

[Pete Ebbink]

Alvin,

Here are photos of eight (8) "dots" on one of my M1929 Bern Swiss Lugers...

Two (2) dots on the left side of the frame "ear" :



Two (2) dots on the inside surface of the side plate and two (2) dots on the left frame rail...just above the trigger :



One (1) dot on the left side of the front toggle link :



One (1) dot on the right side of the rear toggle link :

[LugerVern]

Anna

I am only going to make two more comments and then leave this beautiful gun alone.

There seems to be some unusual coloration on the toggle knobs. This appears on both right and left sides. Most professional restorers know enough to leave the outside checkering alone but sometimes find that rust has invaded the edges and this must be removed. When this is done you sometimes end up with a two tone color of the knobs.

We like your guns Anna, but any time someone makes a 99% statement it opens up doors that are normal kept shut, there are so very few 99% guns.

Vern

[Pete Ebbink]

Alvin,

One more photo for you to look at :

[alvin]

Pete,

This one looks very questionable. Let's see making sense or not. Again, please correct me if I am wrong:

(1) It has been shot a lot. The area pointed by the red arrow was distorted. I bet this area is like the area behind bolt stop on C96.... with this area losing its shape, then it's supposed to be a well used (if not abused) gun. However, the percentage of gun blue and straw seems unusualy high on this one;

(2) The scratch (blue) created by the thumb safety level is not silverish metal color. Metal against metal, I expect silverish scratch;

(3) The polished area.... I don't know..... looks too deep to me, especially in the green circle;

(4) The straw on safety level .... looks refinished to me.

[Imperial Arms]

I would like to thank Alvin for posting two images of a safety area, the first image showing signs of embedded light surface dirt, patina and the 'tiger grain' machine marks'. These are signs of authenticity that the expert eye seeks. Even near mint guns reveal these stuttle signs to in the most tinest degree. For example, look at the grip straps were you MUST notice some patina which comes from normal handling wear.

Believe it or not, I have been collecting for 25 years, however, the majority of my expertise has been gained only in the last 10 years. How come? The reason was that I was not doing my 'homework' properly and I was overlooking the most important factors regarding originality. An European collector further educated me by explaining the true meaning and effects of age which cannot be avoided. Furthermore, he educated me about German quality during the Imperial and Nazi era, and every word that he told me was absolutely true when I saw it for myself. That type of education helped me to understand the 'the good, the bad and the ugly'. It does not take much skill to learn about collecting pistols if you are willing to accept these facts in your observations. I have had the privilage to examined quite a few near mint pistols in museums and private collections, both in the US and Europe, and every single gun which is genuine speaks for itself. When questions or suspicions start to 'pop up', its time to seek opinions from the real and honest experts.

In a subsequent post, Alvin seems to have gone 'over board' using 'surgically precision' (I'm pulling his leg), but the over-riding factor is simply natural aging and handling and the undisutable results that it creates over many, many years. Everything else is 'hog-wash' and it is the notion of time and research which will give meaningful answers. At the end of the day, the final decision lies in the hands of an owner and what standards he/she wants to use to determine authenticity and value.

In regards to German engraving from the early Imperial era, it was very classical and elegant. All the correct presentation Lugers (and Mausers) which I have examined had very fine quality engraving done at the factory and not the deep/chiselled cuts as shown on your pistol.

I hope this information is helpful to you and do not be afraid to ask an expert such as Ron Wood for his inhand examination. I would have gladly provided the (free) service to you, but I am not in the US.

Enjoy the hobby,
Albert

[Pete Ebbink]

Alvin,

Here is the entire thread when this mint gun appeared on the LF...

More photos to look at...

http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthre...highlight=metz

[alvin]

Albert, Thanks for the comments. I just started collecting guns a little more than a year ago. I played guns, non-C&R modern guns, for many years but I did not pay any attention to details. If I close my eye and try to remember what the text on SIG 239's slide, I cannot remember.

Interesting enough, I did have a Luger back 10 years ago. It's an Interarms Mauser 9m/m with Swiss-like grip. Of course, I shot it a lot. One thing that I dislike @ that time -- the trigger and thumb safety were "yellow" ... why yellow? looks old, shouldn't silver look better? So I sanded them until they appeared shiny sterling. Purely stupid, but that seems to be a step many gun lovers went through.

Another topic. I believe you're right on early C96 internal finish. I dissembled a few from independent sources grading from 10% to 98%, all early ones (CH, LRH) that I opened were blued inside the frames.... but the receivers were "white". I swear that wartime 7,63s and 9s frames are "white/gray" inside. So, there are still some myth around Mauser.... why they kept changing those non-functional minor things from time to time is very unclear. But, that's a separate topic. It seems Luger people have done a lot of research and figured lots of things, but Mauser people are still struggling. Waiting for your new books, if possible, please speed up.

[alvin]

Pete --

Let me try this from a general gun's point of view, not a specific Parabellum pistol point of view because I am new on this.

The thumb safety missed a "tooth" in the middle area. Could this be another sign of a well used gun?

Also, there is a small group of "dots" on the receiver. It's not a single dot. I am alerted.

A C96 collector named me "alarmist". Yes, I was and I am. I could be wrong though.

[Ron Wood]

Have any of you guys noticed that the paint is cracked on the Mona Lisa?

[alvin]

Ron,

This is the part that I have difficulty -- "what type of imperfection is
acceptable".... It's not hard to find a few questionable areas, and a 100-year-
old piece is supposed to have something less-than-perfect, but it's hard
for me to tell what's OK and what's not.

For the particular one posted by Pete, the gun blue and straw looks pristine,
the fire blue on grip screw is almost 100%, but the area of the frame that
collides with the toggle knob has bulge and the safety level lost a steel
tooth. I am thinking about this -- Why the fragile gun blue is perfect but
solid steel is not..... Could be fine under certain scenarios -- like, overpowered
ammo was used.... or it was dropped and the safety level lost a tooth.......