1900 AE rear dovetailed site - Page 2

lugerholsterrepair · 01-26-2006, 09:38 PM

Jack, nice photo's...

Herb, Nice patch but I was there for tet 68 and never considered myself to be a survivor. In the 173rd Airborne we were the aggressor. They might be survivors unless we caught em napping. Served in the same area as you...Thanks for your service.

A heads up for those of you who are interested in Krieghoffs. Hopefully Jack Hiles will find the time to present his P series in detail. Many here will be floored by what he shows you....I have never seen anything like it and probably never will again. Jerry Burney

Lugerdoc · 01-27-2006, 07:55 AM

Jack, I stand by my previous opinion, that nothing is intended to be added to sights; just used as is. How is the accuracy at 25 yards, using the base as your front sight? TH

Dwight Gruber · 01-27-2006, 11:36 AM

Tom,

An interesting proposition. Under the circumstance, what would be the purpose for it being cut as a dovetail?

--Dwight

Herb · 01-27-2006, 11:38 AM

Jerry, go back and read my post about using the patch, I said I stole it from a Marine site. Being and aggressor is also dependent upon having a weapon, it sure helps. You've heard about what falls from the sky?

lugerholsterrepair · 01-27-2006, 06:50 PM

Gee Herb, I guess I missed that joke..being a Paratrooper and all. What falls from the sky?
What were you doing in RVN without a weapon? Only people without a weapon in the 173rd were the donut dollies. Jerry Burney

hqbmw · 01-27-2006, 11:29 PM

Tom, I am not intending to shoot this AE. I have heard that the main springs are next to impossible to acquire. Is that correct? It is also such a fine example, I would hate to break a matching part.

Jerry, thanks for the compliments on my photos. Attempting to shoot fine detail on a small stationary object is quite different from all my photographic experience which is F-1 or CART racecars at full speed. Also thanks for the compliments on my HK.

My body finally succumbed to the flu after 6 days of Barrett-Jackson and the Copper Classic last week end. I am now getting energy back and hope to submit single images of the remainder of the AE and try to do a pictorial of the HK this weekend.

Thanks,
Jack Hiles
Mesa AZ
480 219 6676

c3006 · 01-28-2006, 06:16 AM

I wonder if the pistol shot low and some tinkeread like me cut that dovetail and fit in a higher sightblade to raise impact,the only thing is from what I can see nothing has ever mared the finish to show a sight fitted to the dovetail which leads me to also believe it was a mankillin sight for a half blind person like me,I like big ol rear sight cuts. It really is a great looking piece. clint

Lugerdoc · 01-30-2006, 09:12 AM

Jack, Is the cut on your rear link tapered, so that it would hold an insert? To me the photo appears that he just slotted the rear link low enough that he could use the wider front sight base as the front sight, and still be on target. TH

Ron Wood · 01-30-2006, 11:21 AM

Tom,
I have a high resolution graphics monitor, so I can see quite clearly that the slot is a dovetail. It looks like it was cut for an insert.

John Sabato · 01-30-2006, 11:29 AM

Ron, doesn't it appear also that the slot slants downward to the front? This would allow for an insert to provide for some elevation adjustment as well... The insert could have been held in place by a small setscrew... kind of a novel modification IMHO...

Ron Wood · 01-30-2006, 12:08 PM

Actually John, it appears to me that the slot may have a slight slant upward to the front. So regardless of the direction of the slant, it could have some adjustment for elevation, albeit not much. I would be more inclined to think that the slot was cut deeper to the rear to provide bit more "beef" to strengthen the cut, and windage/elevation adjustment (if any) would be incorporated in the sight insert. Nothing like taking a few WAGs when all else fails!

Dwight Gruber · 01-30-2006, 12:20 PM

I'd love to shoot a Luger modified like this with a bead front sight and a small peep at the back...

--Dwight

hqbmw · 01-30-2006, 03:53 PM

Yes all, it is a definite dovetail with a slope slightly upward toward the front. It most obviously was made for an element which A friend and I are going to make in at least 2 forms: one a ghost fiqure (peep sight) and second a traditional "v" notch that can be drifted. These projects are going to take a while so be patient with me and I hope to show all the final results.

I appreciate your input and any suggestions. I still hope to try to track down some historical provenance to this site. The workmanship and finishing is of the highest calibre; MUCH better than any refinishing work i have seen. It is done to the level that one would say it is factory.

Thanks,
Jack

Karl · 01-30-2006, 09:52 PM

I've been reading this thread with interest and have some observations: There does not appear to be any evidence, such as wear marks or scratches, that the dovetail was used. A dovetail in line with the action of the toggle seems like an inherently bad idea since backward/forward and centrifical force of recoil would tend to work loose any insert. The theory about an inserted sight to raise point of impact does not make sense to me because lugers naturally shoot high at normal ranges and filing down the front sight would be a much easier solution. In the end I have to side with Tom's theory that the cut was intended as a rear sighting groove for use without a front sight blade (as you state, the front blade is missing). Why a dovetail? I don't know. KFS

By the way Jack, it is probably not wise to shoot such a nice matching example. I have a mismatched AE that is my favorite shooter, and yes, if anything breaks I'm screwed. KFS

hqbmw · 01-31-2006, 02:11 PM

Karl,

I have no plans on shooting it. I would like to make an element for the rear site. I have a front site for it, but if the rear site stays as is, so be it.

Your observations and the observations of everyone else are very interesting. The question of a dovetail running parallel to the bore center on a Luger is mute as the force of recoil is taken up in the toggle action of the gun. If the gun didn't toggle, the recoil force would be expelled directly into the site.

You are very correct about the lack of any marks indicating an element had been installed. It is as clean as the photos indicate.

I really think I was blessed with the finding of a nearly matched 1900 AE to add to my collection. The site issue gives it some kind of mystery and history to always investigate. I really never thought I would be able to find a 1900 AE, but was glad to pick this one up.

Ironically, I never mentioned the pencil thin 150mm 7.65 barrel. It is just one of the most striking firearms I have ever seen, despite its site issues.

Jack Hiles
Mesa AZ

Dwight Gruber · 01-31-2006, 04:46 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by hqbmw
I have no plans on shooting it. I would like to make an element for the rear site. I have a front site for it, but if the rear site stays as is, so be it.
..........
You are very correct about the lack of any marks indicating an element had been installed. It is as clean as the photos indicate.

Jack, I recall our discussion about this gun being refinished. It is entirely possible--if not likely--that the rear sight intended for it was fabricated and installed, perhaps even tested; and then removed for the refinish and simply never reinstalled.

Do I recall correctly that the front sight is a bead? If so, its removal before rework might support this hypothesis. I wonder if the rear sight was simply lost during the process??

Quote:

Ironically, I never mentioned the pencil thin 150mm 7.65 barrel. It is just one of the most striking firearms I have ever seen, despite its site issues.

I hope you are going to show us pictures of the entire gun...

--Dwight

Pete Ebbink · 01-31-2006, 05:03 PM

Jack,

Is there a chance of seeing three more photos :

1. View of entire gun barrel... a 6" barrel on an M1900 AE is not usual.

2. Detailed photo of the barrel/receiver witness marks.

3. Detailed photo of the polished area underneath the thumb safety lever.

By the looks of it, I would vote for this luger being professionally (possibly recently) redone...but more photos would cetainly help.

The lack of depth of the AE chamber stamping is one "red flag"...

AZ state certainly has it share of boosted lugers showing up...

hqbmw · 01-31-2006, 10:51 PM

Dwight and Pete,

Now that I have this photo posting gig down, you're going to have to tie me down to keep me from posting photos.

It is too late tonight to take the photos you ask to see, but i will be glad to post them tomorrow.

The depth of the AE certainly shows an exuberant polisher. The gun didn't come from Arizona, but I am in total agreement with your statement about boosted AZ guns. I'll get all the images you want and we can all make some more WAGs about this piece. I love having guns that keep you thinking and studying.

This gun came from a source totally removed from our normal sources. you might say they were in a class by themselves: Class 3!!! Had it not been for the lovely Japanese woman behind the counter, I wouldn't have even stopped to look at the firearms they had up for sale, and wouldn't have seen this gem.

Until tomorrow,
Jack

hqbmw · 01-31-2006, 10:59 PM

BTW, before I forget. I feel certain that the gun has been refinished at some point, but NOT recently. There is too much grip wear for a recent job. Also the gun has a very interesting difference at the extreme bottom of the rear strap. A hole was at one time drilled and then professionally refilled. I am NOT removing the filler, but was told by a trusty collector that I will probably find the hole threaded to install a stock sine 1900s had no stock lug. Just another curve to throw into the blend. Great piece to get those WAGs going.

Jack

01-26-2006, 09:38 PM	#21
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,760 Thanks: 4,848 Thanked 3,099 Times in 1,426 Posts	Jack, nice photo's... Herb, Nice patch but I was there for tet 68 and never considered myself to be a survivor. In the 173rd Airborne we were the aggressor. They might be survivors unless we caught em napping. Served in the same area as you...Thanks for your service. A heads up for those of you who are interested in Krieghoffs. Hopefully Jack Hiles will find the time to present his P series in detail. Many here will be floored by what he shows you....I have never seen anything like it and probably never will again. Jerry Burney __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

01-27-2006, 07:55 AM	#22
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 736 Times in 483 Posts	Jack, I stand by my previous opinion, that nothing is intended to be added to sights; just used as is. How is the accuracy at 25 yards, using the base as your front sight? TH __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 lugerdoc@charter.net

01-27-2006, 11:38 AM	#24
Herb User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Utah, in the land of the Sleeping Rainbow Posts: 1,457 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Jerry, go back and read my post about using the patch, I said I stole it from a Marine site. Being and aggressor is also dependent upon having a weapon, it sure helps. You've heard about what falls from the sky? __________________ Utah, where gun control means a steady trigger pull

01-27-2006, 06:50 PM	#25
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,760 Thanks: 4,848 Thanked 3,099 Times in 1,426 Posts	Gee Herb, I guess I missed that joke..being a Paratrooper and all. What falls from the sky? What were you doing in RVN without a weapon? Only people without a weapon in the 173rd were the donut dollies. Jerry Burney __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

01-27-2006, 11:29 PM	#26
hqbmw User Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Mesa AZ Posts: 228 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Tom, I am not intending to shoot this AE. I have heard that the main springs are next to impossible to acquire. Is that correct? It is also such a fine example, I would hate to break a matching part. Jerry, thanks for the compliments on my photos. Attempting to shoot fine detail on a small stationary object is quite different from all my photographic experience which is F-1 or CART racecars at full speed. Also thanks for the compliments on my HK. My body finally succumbed to the flu after 6 days of Barrett-Jackson and the Copper Classic last week end. I am now getting energy back and hope to submit single images of the remainder of the AE and try to do a pictorial of the HK this weekend. Thanks, Jack Hiles Mesa AZ 480 219 6676 __________________ Jack Hiles Mesa AZ

01-27-2006, 11:36 AM	#23
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,889 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,281 Times in 423 Posts	Tom, An interesting proposition. Under the circumstance, what would be the purpose for it being cut as a dovetail? --Dwight

01-28-2006, 06:16 AM	#27
c3006 User Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: east tn Posts: 526 Thanks: 5 Thanked 12 Times in 5 Posts	I wonder if the pistol shot low and some tinkeread like me cut that dovetail and fit in a higher sightblade to raise impact,the only thing is from what I can see nothing has ever mared the finish to show a sight fitted to the dovetail which leads me to also believe it was a mankillin sight for a half blind person like me,I like big ol rear sight cuts. It really is a great looking piece. clint __________________ Men Accustomed unto thier arms and their liberties will never endure the yoke. James Harrington 1776

01-30-2006, 09:12 AM	#28
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 736 Times in 483 Posts	Jack, Is the cut on your rear link tapered, so that it would hold an insert? To me the photo appears that he just slotted the rear link low enough that he could use the wider front sight base as the front sight, and still be on target. TH __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 lugerdoc@charter.net

01-30-2006, 11:21 AM	#29
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 6,986 Thanks: 1,065 Thanked 5,088 Times in 1,674 Posts	Tom, I have a high resolution graphics monitor, so I can see quite clearly that the slot is a dovetail. It looks like it was cut for an insert. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

01-30-2006, 11:29 AM	#30
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,150 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	Ron, doesn't it appear also that the slot slants downward to the front? This would allow for an insert to provide for some elevation adjustment as well... The insert could have been held in place by a small setscrew... kind of a novel modification IMHO... __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

01-30-2006, 12:08 PM	#31
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 6,986 Thanks: 1,065 Thanked 5,088 Times in 1,674 Posts	Actually John, it appears to me that the slot may have a slight slant upward to the front. So regardless of the direction of the slant, it could have some adjustment for elevation, albeit not much. I would be more inclined to think that the slot was cut deeper to the rear to provide bit more "beef" to strengthen the cut, and windage/elevation adjustment (if any) would be incorporated in the sight insert. Nothing like taking a few WAGs when all else fails! __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

01-30-2006, 12:20 PM	#32
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,889 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,281 Times in 423 Posts	I'd love to shoot a Luger modified like this with a bead front sight and a small peep at the back... --Dwight

01-30-2006, 03:53 PM	#33
hqbmw User Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Mesa AZ Posts: 228 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Yes all, it is a definite dovetail with a slope slightly upward toward the front. It most obviously was made for an element which A friend and I are going to make in at least 2 forms: one a ghost fiqure (peep sight) and second a traditional "v" notch that can be drifted. These projects are going to take a while so be patient with me and I hope to show all the final results. I appreciate your input and any suggestions. I still hope to try to track down some historical provenance to this site. The workmanship and finishing is of the highest calibre; MUCH better than any refinishing work i have seen. It is done to the level that one would say it is factory. Thanks, Jack __________________ Jack Hiles Mesa AZ

01-30-2006, 09:52 PM	#34
Karl Lifer - Twice Over Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Savannah Posts: 514 Thanks: 0 Thanked 239 Times in 111 Posts	I've been reading this thread with interest and have some observations: There does not appear to be any evidence, such as wear marks or scratches, that the dovetail was used. A dovetail in line with the action of the toggle seems like an inherently bad idea since backward/forward and centrifical force of recoil would tend to work loose any insert. The theory about an inserted sight to raise point of impact does not make sense to me because lugers naturally shoot high at normal ranges and filing down the front sight would be a much easier solution. In the end I have to side with Tom's theory that the cut was intended as a rear sighting groove for use without a front sight blade (as you state, the front blade is missing). Why a dovetail? I don't know. KFS By the way Jack, it is probably not wise to shoot such a nice matching example. I have a mismatched AE that is my favorite shooter, and yes, if anything breaks I'm screwed. KFS

01-31-2006, 02:11 PM	#35
hqbmw User Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Mesa AZ Posts: 228 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Karl, I have no plans on shooting it. I would like to make an element for the rear site. I have a front site for it, but if the rear site stays as is, so be it. Your observations and the observations of everyone else are very interesting. The question of a dovetail running parallel to the bore center on a Luger is mute as the force of recoil is taken up in the toggle action of the gun. If the gun didn't toggle, the recoil force would be expelled directly into the site. You are very correct about the lack of any marks indicating an element had been installed. It is as clean as the photos indicate. I really think I was blessed with the finding of a nearly matched 1900 AE to add to my collection. The site issue gives it some kind of mystery and history to always investigate. I really never thought I would be able to find a 1900 AE, but was glad to pick this one up. Ironically, I never mentioned the pencil thin 150mm 7.65 barrel. It is just one of the most striking firearms I have ever seen, despite its site issues. Jack Hiles Mesa AZ __________________ Jack Hiles Mesa AZ

01-31-2006, 05:03 PM	#37
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Jack, Is there a chance of seeing three more photos : 1. View of entire gun barrel... a 6" barrel on an M1900 AE is not usual. 2. Detailed photo of the barrel/receiver witness marks. 3. Detailed photo of the polished area underneath the thumb safety lever. By the looks of it, I would vote for this luger being professionally (possibly recently) redone...but more photos would cetainly help. The lack of depth of the AE chamber stamping is one "red flag"... AZ state certainly has it share of boosted lugers showing up...

01-31-2006, 10:51 PM	#38
hqbmw User Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Mesa AZ Posts: 228 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Dwight and Pete, Now that I have this photo posting gig down, you're going to have to tie me down to keep me from posting photos. It is too late tonight to take the photos you ask to see, but i will be glad to post them tomorrow. The depth of the AE certainly shows an exuberant polisher. The gun didn't come from Arizona, but I am in total agreement with your statement about boosted AZ guns. I'll get all the images you want and we can all make some more WAGs about this piece. I love having guns that keep you thinking and studying. This gun came from a source totally removed from our normal sources. you might say they were in a class by themselves: Class 3!!! Had it not been for the lovely Japanese woman behind the counter, I wouldn't have even stopped to look at the firearms they had up for sale, and wouldn't have seen this gem. Until tomorrow, Jack __________________ Jack Hiles Mesa AZ

01-31-2006, 10:59 PM	#39
hqbmw User Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Mesa AZ Posts: 228 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	BTW, before I forget. I feel certain that the gun has been refinished at some point, but NOT recently. There is too much grip wear for a recent job. Also the gun has a very interesting difference at the extreme bottom of the rear strap. A hole was at one time drilled and then professionally refilled. I am NOT removing the filler, but was told by a trusty collector that I will probably find the hole threaded to install a stock sine 1900s had no stock lug. Just another curve to throw into the blend. Great piece to get those WAGs going. Jack