1902 Carbine Stock Attachment Photos...

[Pete Ebbink]

Have been told that there are two (2) variations in the 1902 carbine models; in regards to 1-screw vs. 2-screw stock attachment iron...(think I have this right...).

Would any folks have photos they could post on the LF to highlight these differences ?

In a week or so I will have a chance to see a local collector's 1902 carbine with the 1-screw detail. This gun is in the first 21,xxx series of serial number. If the Owner agrees, I will take a photo or two of this detail and will post it on the LF...

Thanks for your help...

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

[John Sabato]

Hi Pete, I do have photos that can show you the difference, but I am away from my photo archive for a few days.

Basically the difference is that the number indicates the total screws that pass through both the stock iron tangs and the wood portion of the stock. I can compare it to the way a buttstock is attached to a Winchester 94 lever action... if you are familiar with those.

I will try to remember to post you a couple of photos showing the difference when I get back to my office next week.

The military type LP-08 stock is normally two screws.

I speculate that the commercial type is only one screw through the ends of the stock iron tangs.

[Pete Ebbink]

Hello John S.,

I forgot and you forgot...could you still post the photos you mentioned you had...?

Thanks so much !

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

[John Sabato]

Sorry about that Pete... I have several hard drives that float through a single external USB drive case on an as needed basis... the drive with my archive couldn't go online because the case was being used for another drive for some time... but here is a photo comparison of the one-screw vs. two-screw type of stock attachment iron...

<a href="http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/stockironcomparison.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/stockironcomparison.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>

I trust this is helpful...

[Dean]

I have several newbie questions regarding this item.

I know Numrich makes a "clone" of the luger stock, but it is exspensive, and they do not sell the attachment part seperately.

Question 1:
Is a clone attachment available seperately from somewhere else? I would prefer to make my own stock so as to match it to the grips.

Question 2:
Is it BATF legal to take, for example, a modern
stainless luger (or shooter grade luger) and make your own carbine clone?
(assuming the new barrel is long enough for BATF
requirements)

Question 3:
Are there any good pictures around that show the forestock internals? I understand there is a "helper" spring in the forestock to assist in returning the larger barrel into battery but I have never seen this mechanism. I would also be interested in seeing what the forestock mounting lug looks like on the front of the frame.

[Ron Wood]

For Question 3, I hope these pictures help.

The first photo is of the carbine with the forearm removed. You can see the frame extension and the accelerator lug on the bottom of the barrel.


The next photo is two views of the frame extension.


Here is the forearm in three views. You can see the accelerator assembly in the top view. The lug on the bottom of the barrel contacts the plunger in the accelerator.

[Dean]

Thanks for posting the great pictures, Ron. I hope you don't mind if I ask a few more questions regarding them.

In the bottom photo, top shot...
The coloration of the top of the accelerator is interesting. Is that color case hardened? It looks like cast lead or something.

It looks to be a "spring plunger tube" cast into a square shape that fits snugly into the inleting of the stock. Is that the plunger exposed at the front?

I suspect that the lug on the barrel is not just soldered on, but that the lug is actually inserted into a square recess in the barrel and then soldered.

There must have been quite a bit of hand fitting to get the stock to fit nicely.

I notice the Martz custom carbines do not not have the wedge. He must have used some other type of fastening method to attach the forestock to the frame extension. Maybe he incorporates it in the swivel.

I just love the gentle flare at the tip of these carbine stocks

[John Sabato]

Hey Ron, thanks for the great photos... now how about a photo of the top and bottom sides of the key that holds the forearm to the frame extension... that would complete most of the puzzle for most newbies... and me. (Don't let the gray hair fool you... I have been reading and studying about these guns for over 40 years and I am still learning...)

Last question... where does the extra spring go and what keeps it in place?

[Lugerdoc]

Ron, Making an authentic looking and reliably functioning M1902 Carbine will be an expensive and difficult project. Since they were long frame/receiver pistols and I presume that you will be starting with a short frame PO8 (forget the recent copies, as they don't have stock lugs), I'd recommend that you might attempted the simpler M1920 Carbine, without recoil assist in forearm and attaching forearm to frame extention with swivel screw. I do have a few Martz carbine parts in stock that may be of help. TH

[Ron Wood]

Dean,
The coloration of the top of the accelerator is actually the â??peacockâ?� coloration caused by heat-treating or the heat generated by the machining of the accelerator block. Since the part is hidden, no attempt was made to polish it out.

The square "spring plunger tube", or what I call the accelerator block, that is inlet into the stock is a machined part not a casting. The plunger is that bright cylindrical object at the front of the accelerator block.

Both the front sight ramp and the lug on the bottom of the barrel appear to be integral to the barrel and not soldered on. Quite a bit of machining artistry. If they are actually soldered on, it is totally undetectable. The rear sight mount, however, is clearly a separate piece and is silver soldered in place.

John,
The wedge that holds the forearm to the frame extension can only be taken out of the forearm by backing out that little setscrew that is visible in the wood adjacent to the wedge. Since it has been in place for about 100 years now, I am reluctant to try to remove it without good cause (if it ainâ??t broke, donâ??t fool with it). Someday I will attempt to get a few photos of the wedge in different positions while still in the stock, which should give enough information on how it is constructed to provide the information you would like.

The extra spring is behind the plunger that Dean inquired about. It is inside the accelerator block, and is held in place by the plunger, which in turn is pinned to the accelerator block.

Tom,
Thanks for the info, but it is Dean (brokencase) that is considering making a carbine. I am fortunate to have one already, and am not inclined to take on that type of project. I am sure Dean can use your input, and your suggestion about creating a 1920 style carbine without the complex forearm is a good one.

[John Sabato]

Thanks again Ron... Since I have never taken a forearm off of a carbine... I had no idea that it was a latch rather than a loose piece that clicks into place... that was my guess... that's why I thought taking a photo of it would be an easy task.

We shall wait until someone has a need to open this pandora's box and not take one apart just to satify our curiosity...

thanks for your descriptive education on the Luger carbine forearm.

[Ron Wood]

John,
Your guess is correct, it is a loose piece that clicks into place. However, to preclude its being lost, the setscrew limits the travel of the wedge to just enough to permit disassembly but prevents the wedge from being completely removed from the stock.

[Dean]

FWIW, I did find a source of reproduction stock irons (at least for the artillery stock)

The company's name is CMR International in the UK. They want $60 for it.

Here's a link to thier website:
http://www.btinternet.com/~cmr.international/index.htm

They also offer nice reproduction holsters.

Lugerdoc, Don't underestimate me!

[Lugerdoc]

Dean, I look forward to viewing your finished project. I also meant to mention CMR for stock lugs. These have longer tangs than standard, but since you plan to build your own wood to fit the lug, this should not be a problem. TH

[John Sabato]

brokencase

I see one of your questions went unanswered... the one about using a late model Luger as a basis for a stocked Luger...

Only Luger/Stock combinations that have been specifically exempted by the ATF from the National Firearms Act as Curio & Relics can have a stock legally attached.

You can submit a request to the ATF to "make" a short barreled rifle (SBR) out of a Luger not specifically exempted by submitting the appropriate paperwork and pre-paying a $200 tax. Once the request is approved by ATF, then and only then can you "make" a Luger and a stock into an SBR. Any Luger can be used for this purpose and forever more the pistol has become an SBR and is subject to the full provisions of the National Firearms Act of 1934.

IF you use a barrel of at LEAST 16 inches... then you don't need to go through this process... because the barrel length is long enough so that it doesn't meet the definition of a "short barrel"... but a 16 inch barrel is a lot of steel to move reliably with Luger calibers and probably wouldn't function well... just my opinion.

I trust this has been helpful to keep you on the right side of the law.

[Dean]

Thanks John,

I was pretty certain that if I met the 16 inch barrel length that I would be OK.

I was not aware of the SBR request proccess. That is interesting.

Still a question in my mind is what happens with regard to the FFL database, i.e, the gun is sold to me as a pistol originally, then later I sell it and it is now a carbine..

With regard to the project, still in the research phase.

I am pretty confident I can handle the construction of the forestock, frame extension, accelerator, stock attachment, etc. The barrel is the hurdle.

Marstar in Canada sells a luger 16 in. barrel and forestock for about $200. However they do not list the caliber. I would like 9mm. I would also like it in stainless steel.

I would prefer not cutting a barrel blank. I have a metal lathe and I have contoured barrels previously, but I am not sure it is up to cutting the threads for the luger.

"Luger Tips" mentions that Springfield barrels fit the luger. Though I think the author is just refering to the caliber and not the threading.

[John Sabato]

I think that the Luger Tips mention of Springfield barrels fitting the Luger refers to the fact that these barrels have enough "meat" on them to turn them to Luger specs... definitely not thread compatible and of course, what would you do with the 30-06 chamber that was inside the threaded portion...

No, M1903 barrels must have just enough .30 caliber barrel to make a useable Luger barrel... As the old-timer gunsmith might tell you... all you have to do is cut away everything that doesn't look like a Luger barrel...

If you want a stainless 16 inch tube you will have to make it yourself or have it made... Perhaps Orimar might make you one on special order of one of their firearms and it would come installed so you wouldn't have to worry about receiver wrenches and such... They might even cut the shoulder stock lug for you... who knows.

It doesn't hurt to ask.

The Marstar barrel isn't available in stainless and has a threaded hole in it's underside where the forearm (not of typical Luger design) is attached... not a pretty arrangement... trust me.

The FFL database as you called it is simply the 4473 forms that the dealer keeps filled out on paper... once you have "papered" an SBR, that paperwork would supercede anything prior to that in the weapon's history.

[Dean]

John, Do you know what the caliber of the Marstar 16" barrel is?

The alternative approach of starting with a "shooter grade" luger does look more promising. Use the Marstar barrel but throw away it's forestock.
As LugerDoc stated, start with a shooter with a stock lug.

I will give Orimar a call and see what is possible on that angle. In fact, I think they would do pretty well in offering a 16" carbine model along with that rumoured .45 at the forthcomming Shot Show.

[John Sabato]

The only 16 inch barrels I have seen are 9mm.

[Dean]

John, My apologies with regards to discussing the construction of a modern carbine in the section of the forums. I will try to keep my further discussion "in topic".

Ron, If your still following this thread,

I am curious if you obtained any other accessories with your 1902 carbine. Case, sling, documentation, etc..

Were there any modification performed by previous owners, or is it all original?

Have you ever shot it? If so, what does it feel like? It must be strange to put ones face so close to the operating toggle action.

We're all probably familiar that Teddy Roosevelt & Churchhill owned one of these guns. But what I find more facinating is that many of these carbines ended up in some of the German colonies of that time period.

The movie "Out of Africa" comes to mind. It's easy to imagine a plantation owner carrying one of these carbines on horseback while patroling the estate. Certainly not a "Big Game" rifle, but the multi-shot capability must have proved useful for warding off pests or taking smaller game.

Must have been an interesting time and place to live. Perhaps if your carbine could talk it could speak of such things.