French Luger???

[LugermanNH]

Can anyone verify for me the history of a "french" luger???

http://www.phoenixinvestmentarms.com/06french.htm

I am seeing some strange luger variants on this website and was wanting another opinion...

Thanks

John

[Pete Ebbink]

John,

IMHO, the side plate does not look quite right. Color seems off...

C. Kenyon in his 2nd. book on page 114 speculates this barrel marking was "likely a marketing tool, targeted at the French retailer...".

Also...take a look at the two photos, below. Photo # 2 shows a "halo" around the barrel marking while Photo # 1 does not.

Photo # 1 (the PIA luger for sale) :



Photo # 2 (a French luger displayed by member "HistoryBuffGuy" in August in the P08 Military section this past summer) :



QUESTION : Which one is "right"...? (I do not think both can be right...)

Regards,

Pete...

[mauro]

John,
as far as I know the Lugers made by DWM for the French commercial market have a "fleur de lys" stamp on the chamber. This stamp was typical of the Saint-Etienne city, well known in French for the gun industries. The pistol shown doesn't have this stamp.
I am not so expert in this luger variation so I stop here my consideration.
I hope this helps.
Ciao

[Ron Wood]

I am usually kind of critical of this guy's Lugers, but my gut feel is this one is legitimate. If you look close, you can see the evidence of a halo around the leading letter "M". The resolution of the photo doesn't reveal much about the rest of the inscription. I know that white in the letters helps to read the inscription, but I would much prefer a closeup of un-filled letters. Laquer-stik sometimes covers a multitude of sins.
Actually, the "fleur de lis" marking is rather rare, I think only one or two examples are known. The majority of the barrel marked French have blank chambers.

[mauro]

Thank you Ron for this info. Actually I thought that the "fleur de lys" was stamped in all "French" Luger.
Happy new year.
Ciao
Mauro

[Lugerdoc]

Mauro, Most experts believe the fleur de lys marked chambers to be spurious. TH

[mauro]

Thank you Tom.
The only fleur de lys I have seen are published on the book. I remember a very nice picture in the Kenyon's book "Luger The Multinational Pistol".
Have a good holidays and Happy 2004.
Ciao

[Imperial Arms]

To add a note to Ron's previous post regarding the French Lugers with the "fleur de lis" on the chamber, I believe that this very rare (1902) model exists in the 25,000 or 28,000 serial range.

Albert

[Pete Ebbink]

Have any folks here on the LF had a chance to see the "Fleur de Lis" pistol in person...?

From the one photo on page 114 of C. Kenyon's 2nd. book, it looks as though bluing was applied on a "spot basis" once the chamber engraving was made. But maybe what I am seeing is just an effect of the photography...

Regards,

Pete...

[Imperial Arms]

Pete,

I have never examined a 'Fleur de Lis' French Luger, but I have examined three 1906 French Commercial Lugers during a visit to a collector's home in France. It is hard to believe that possibly one FDL Luger exists when I would have imagined that there should be a few more in existence, especially in France. Hopefully, a genuine FDL Luger will surface in the future which would provide more information regarding this very rare model.

Best wishes,
Albert

[southlander0]

First things first, I'm a longtime reader first time poster. Now back to the topic...

You can back off this one Pete, Iâ??m pretty sure that was my Uncleâ??s French Luger. A bearded guy from NC who was across the table from me in a poker game in Myrtle Beach SC made my stake for the gun when I was down in a poker game. I didnâ??t understand at that time why he was asking me about the box.
I do now.

[Edward Tinker]

James, can you give us more information? I only ask because every now and then we get a "troll" {no offense to you} and they state something as fact, and it is "bogus" info?

Why do you think it was your uncles? do you now the serial number?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">A bearded guy from NC who was across the table from me in a poker game in Myrtle Beach SC made my stake for the gun when I was down in a poker game. I didnâ??t understand at that time why he was asking me about the box.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">So, did you lose the gun then?

What about a box?

More info James?

Ed

[Pete Ebbink]

Hello James,

Could you clarify which French luger you are commenting on...?

Is it the French luger that is for sale on the Phoenix Investment Arms web site or is it the "Fleur de Lis" pistol in C. Kenyon's 2nd. book ? This this thread discussion branched out a bit and discussed different lugers, I am not sure which one you are discussing...

Thanks,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[bigbye]" title="" src="graemlins/xyxwave.gif" />

[Pete Ebbink]

Hello Albert,

Would you mind listing the serial numbers of the other French lugers you had a chance to see during your travels ?

The following are the numbers I am aware :

1. # 51554, shown in C. Kenyon's first book on page 106-107...fully cased with accessories.

2. # 54410, shown here on the Luger Forum by member "HistoryBuffGuy" earlier this summer in the Military P-08 section. A $ 500 find in a flea market.

3. # 51872, currently on Ralph Shattuck's WOL List # 243, stock # 1148 with an asking price of $ 8,500.00 (no photos posted...).

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

[Ron Wood]

If you want to see photos of #51872, follow the link in the first post that started this topic (for $1000 less by the way).

[Pete Ebbink]

Ron,

You are right...how the heck did I miss that...?

Looks like we have Phoenix east and Phoenix west...usually the pricing differential is in the other direction...

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

[George Anderson]

Pete, you are correct. I feel that there is a link between Phoenix and a fellow I know in NC. I also suspect a connection to another in Arizona. That would make this an axis of luger pedddlars dealing from a single sack of lugers. Very curious.

[Imperial Arms]

Hello Pete,

I have recorded (but not examined) the serial numbers of three 1906 French Commercial Lugers in Europe which are: #45425; #47601; #51537.

There are two other Lugers in Europe which I have examined, but I did not have the opportunity to record the serial numbers.

I did examine a few years ago another pistol in the US which was #69030, but I cannot confirm if it was genuine or not.

Based on the serial number range of these Lugers, it appears that these Lugers were spread over 5,000-10,000 numbers and obviously not sequential. When an order was received, DWM would probably take a M1906 pistol off the rack and ship it to the retailer in France who would then mark it and provide any additional accessories such as a case

Cheers,
Albert

[albertomanuel10]

Hello,

I�´m Alberto (a new member from Spain). I recently bought a luger, and now, I think it could be a French Luger.

When I bought it, we didn�´t know anything about french (early) lugers, and I bought it as a almost-new postwar gun. Furthermore, it seems not to have been shooten (I�´m a shooter at Federacion Madrile�±a de Tiro Olimpico)...

It�´s a DWM 9mm luger with the next marks (sorry, I don�´t have any photo):

Serial number: 46058
Barrel markings:
on top: "Manufacture Francaise d�´Armes & Cycles de Saint Etienne"
below: B U G , 118,35

on receiver and toggle assembly: B U

I haven�´t seen any "fleur de lis".

I hope this information can help you.
Where could I get any additional information about my gun?

Thank you very much.

Regards,

Alberto

[John Sabato]

albertomanuel10

Welcome to the Lugerforum.

Your gun is quite rare... If you visit this link:

http://www.phoenixinvestmentarms.com/06french.htm

Which also appears in the first message in this thread you will see many photographs of a similar French Luger.

This dealer is offering this Luger for $7500.00 USD. While I have reference for the true value of this type of Luger other than this dealer, I would not shoot yours or sell it.

Please try to have good digital photographs of your Luger made so we can post them here on the forum. If you need help to do this, just ask.

Congratulations on your purchase of what appears to be a rare and valuable Luger.