Horizontal lazy "N"...Long msg.

[Walt J.]

Rogues, members, visitors, et al. A Luger mystery to be solved for your fun, enjoyment, and my peaceÃ?Â*of mind.

First, my most sincere thanks to Bill for his invaluable help in putting the probable history of this piece together for me. His knowledge is truely extraordinary. And to Ted for pointing me in directions that under ordinary circumstances, should have solved this thing, andÃ?Â*for putting up with me inÃ?Â*general.

I have a double date Luger,Ã?Â*quite ordinary in all respects, except that it has dual horizontal lazy "N" nitro marks on the right side, oneÃ?Â*preceeding the DWM inspectors marks and imperial eagle on the receiver, and the other below it on the right frame rail. All reference material shows proper placement for the crown "N", horizontal or vertical, to be on the receiver's left side. According to numerious individuals I haveÃ?Â*contacted across the country, my marking does not exist.

Jan Still, in Alaska however, has seen aÃ?Â*copy with a single right side marking on the receiver and an elderly gentleman I ran into at a gun show recalls an example from 40 years ago of the single lazy "N" preceeding the DWM inspectors marks, also on a double date police rework.

Here's what IÃ?Â*can tell you.

The weapon began life as a DWM 1917 LP-08 as evidenced by theÃ?Â*transverse step milled out of the front of the receiver. It has a full set of military and DWM inspectors marks as well as a crown "RC" on the rear toggle link indicating rework and reissue, which according to Walter's 'Luger Book' is itself rare for a DWM. Jan, by chance, does haveÃ?Â*a DWM artillery in his collection withÃ?Â*the crown "RC". Sometimes between the end of the war and the rules issued by the Allied Control Commission in 1919, it was reworked and rebarreled with the shorter 9MM and hit with horizontal crown "N"s in what would be the normal positions, the right side of the barrel, toggle link and breech block, with theÃ?Â*barrel being serialed to the frame and also inscribed with the bore diameter as well as an inspectors crown "M" on the top left ofÃ?Â*the barrel.

All of this indicates that it was being reworked for commercial contract or individual sale.

However, apparently the gun instead went to the Weimar military, getting theÃ?Â*1920 date, and being reworked and refinished a second time, with the commercial nitro crown "N"s on barrel, toggle link and breech block being virtually buffed into oblivion. All other markings, including the right side horizontal crown "N"s on receiver and frame rail, showÃ?Â*only minimal buffing as would be expected with theÃ?Â*rework.

TheÃ?Â*gun eventually wound up with the Dresden Police as evidenced by the S.P.D. on the grip strap.

So, my question which to date no one has been able to answer is simply: What are theÃ?Â*horizontal crown "N"s doing on the right side of the receiver and frame?

Why are they there and for what reason?

Pictures will be showing up in the "owners corner" in the next day or so providing I don't screw them up sending them to DOK. Any information will beÃ?Â*greatly appreciated.

All the best, people...Walt

[Dok]

Walt, Needless to say, It is unusual to find a luger with both the military inspectors marks and Commerical crown N nitro proofs on the same pistol. If your horizontal crown over Ns on the right receiver and frame rail are smaller than the normal DWM c/Ns, I suspect that your pistol is a Weimar era Kreighoff rework (see Gibson's "Kreighoff Luger" book pages 113,140,143,and 190-199.) Usually the C/N will also appear on the top of the breeck block to the left of the extractor.

[Walt J.]

Dok,

Sent 8 pictures and a couple letters of explanation to your E-mail site yesterday. Looks like they didn't make it and are swirling around somewhere in the great electronic void somewhere. I'll haveÃ?Â*to figure out some other way to get these to you. Please advise if they happen to show up.

Thanks,

Walt

[Walt J.]

Tom,

Had another gentlemen suggest the Kreighoff possibility, but in this case, the breech block crown N is on the right side and the N's are apparently too large to be Kreighoff's. Also they appear to haveÃ?Â*been applied well prior to Kreighoff doing their reworks in the mid 20's. If I can everÃ?Â*figure a way to get the photos to DOK, it'll give you a better idea of the situation. Thanks very much for the interest..Walt

[Rick K]

I have a DWM 1916/1920 that has the horizontal crown"N"s on the right side of the receiver just as you describe. There is one preceeding the DWM inspector's marks and the imperial eagle (which I'm pretty sure is proof #15 in Kenyon's book) and there is another lazy "N" just below that one on the right frame rail just like you describe on yours. There are three more on the right side; one on the barrel, one on the toggle link and also the right side of the breech block. On the top left side of the barrel, there is a tiny crown "RC" with another symbol below it that looks like a crown with what looks like a letter under it that might be a "K". That arrangement is also horizontal or parallel with the barrel. There is also a crown "RC" on the rear toggle link (I think, it's hard to make out). I see no marks on the straps. On the bottom of the barrel, under the serial number, there is what looks like the number 8,83 or 8.83. Is that the bore diameter? Additionally there is an eagle on the left side of the breech block and one on the front of the trigger guard. All of the parts are numbered to the gun (except the mag).

My problem is that I'm real new to Luger collection. I know no one near me that owns a Luger that I can compare notes with. The only proof marks that I've seen are the drawings in Kenyon's book, so I'm not sure about whether some of the proofs on the gun match the drawings. I wonder if anyone has actual photographs of the various kinds of markings to help someone like me? Meanwhile, do you think I've happened upon the same sort of oddity that you have?

[Walt J.]

Rick,

Sure sounds like it, except that the crown N's on the right side of my barrel, breech block and front toggle link have been deliberately buffed into virtual oblivion, which may have been done prior to it being turned over to the police. Bottom line is that after months of inquiring, no one has been able to come up with an answer as to what the lazy N's on the right receiver and frame rail indicate. Good to know there is another one out there. Now, all we need is an answer to this minor mystery. Bound to be somebody out there waiting to enlighten us.

All the best......Walt

[Ted]

Dont forgot some Death Head Lugers had a single Lazy N on the right receiver next to the Military stampings. Reference one of Still's books. Ted

[Walt J.]

Rick,

By the way, the number below your serial on the bottom of the barrel is indeed the bore diameter and the crown K you mentioned is an inspectors mark. OneÃ?Â*favor. Please measure your barrel from front of breech to muzzle and let me know if it is 3 7/8 or 4 inches.

Appreciate it....Walt

[Walt J.]

Ted,

Could not forget that. It would thrill me to death if I could find a deaths head somewhere on this thing.

Have a good one....Walt

[Rick K]

Walt, It's exactly 3 7/8 inches. Rick

Rick K, The 8,83 marking on the bottom of your luger barrel is the land (high part of bore as opposed to groove) diameter in millimeters. I still support the KH rework theory for these horizontal C/N marked lugers.

[Walt J.]

Rick,

Same here at 3 7/8. From what I've been able to research, normal barrels for this period wereÃ?Â*the standard 4 inchers, so it adds a bit to the strangeness. Undoubtedly, we're in the same boat here, and Tom may be correct with his veryÃ?Â*early Kreighoff rework theory, but when IÃ?Â*madeÃ?Â*that suggestion to a couple of local "experts" at a recent gun show, IÃ?Â*hit the "no way" brickÃ?Â*wall. The only apparent differenceÃ?Â*between theÃ?Â*two is that yours stayed withÃ?Â*the military and mine was diverted to the police. With the 9MM barrel and the horizontal lazy "N"s, we know they must have been rebarreled prior to the Allied Control Commission restrictionsÃ?Â*citing the 7.65 barrel for commercial use and the switchÃ?Â*to theÃ?Â*vertical nitroÃ?Â*mark. Sooooo, any more info from the vast knowledge floating around this web site would be greatly appreciated.

Walt

[Rick K]

Thanks Tom for your info, and thanks Walt for starting this thread. It caused me to study every square millimeter of my DWM with a magnifying glass. I'm really learning a lot from you guys and this forum! BTW, this forum really is taking off. Dok is doing a wonderful job! I intend to get more Luger books, but meanwhile, I've read and learned a lot on this forum from guys who have a lot of hard-to-come-by knowledge.

[Walt J.]

Rick,

Left a message on your E-mail, but for some reason I have had a problem over the last coupleÃ?Â*of days getting anything received using the address's supplied on the forum, although my fantastic hitech web tv tells me they'veÃ?Â*been sent. Would appreciate it if you'd let me know by E-mail or on the forum if you got the thing.

All the best.....Walt

[Rick K]

Walt sent me this picture and I have uploaded it to the forum for him. You can see it at:





http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/Walt'sDWMwithlazycrownN::s.jpg