Ted's Plum Luger...

Dok · 02-05-2001, 05:31 PM

has been added to the Owner's Corner.

Ted · 02-05-2001, 05:54 PM

Danke, Herr Doktor!

BILL · 02-06-2001, 05:38 PM

Most might think that the plum color on the Luger is unusual, but I have an original finish P-38 that has almost the exact same color but a little darker. It came this way from the factory and was the result of the inability during WWII to maintain high quality control standards. During peace time the bluing process was more stringently maintained and any reddish or plum colored pistols either were scrapped or reworked. (I actually enjoy a little variation..but Ted, no pink ones, ok?)

G.T. · 02-06-2001, 06:42 PM

BILL, What's the date and serial range of your P.38? GT

Ted · 02-06-2001, 07:10 PM

My daughter has a pink Luger squirt gun, I will have to post a picture now! I am raising them right! TED

BILL · 02-06-2001, 08:28 PM

I will post that info on the WWII P-38 (within the next few days..it's "put away"). Wouldn't it be nice to have the room that would allow you to just keep everything out where you can enjoy it all the time? Maybe someday. (Just off the top of my head..it is a late war cyq, serial number to follow).

Marvin · 02-07-2001, 06:49 AM

Bill, The subject of the Plum Color has been a good subject for many years and I agree that the reason is quality control. BUT, the real reason this plum color happens is that the bluing solution is set to a certain temperature, with a certain concentration of bluing salts, and a certain type steel and steel hardness. If any of these variables change, there will be changes in the bluing color. What happened on Lugers nad P.38s that exhibit the Plum Color is due to the "work Hardening" of the steel during the manufacturing process. A piece of steel when machined should certain speed and feeds for the cutter which do not overheat the piece of steel being machined. During the war, the machine operators were rtying to produce the parts as fast as possible and still make sure they passed inspection. If you will look at a P.38 frame near the rails, the machinging marks noramlly are very evident, and you may see the plum color there and not on the lower half of the frame. When fast feed rates are used in cutting the metal, and you have a coolant flow on the steel, it will do what is called "work harden". This is the same as if it were heat treated. This change in hardness of the steel will not blue the same as the rest of the steel that is not as hard. In a manufacturing operation for wartime, thi9s would not be a reason to make changes in the time, temperature, and salt concentration for the bluing bath, so they set these parameters for a middle of the road approach to bluing. The protection to the steel is almost as good as a high quality blue, so the pistol passes all inspections. As with any waring country, even the US, the quality of finish deteriorated as the war progressed. The Germans were not dumb and did not maufacture any weapons that were not safe for their troops to use. The last few weeks of the war when there was no control, the quality did drop, but not until then.

Marvin

Dok · 02-07-2001, 08:06 AM

maybe THIS belongs in the FAQ??? Yes? No?

Hugh · 02-07-2001, 09:17 AM

Marvin · 02-07-2001, 09:56 AM

Hugh,

Thanks for mentioning my typos. Usually I know when it happens, but I have just barely had time to read the Forum the past couple of weeks. I will try to keep my spelling a little better in the future!! Ha, Ha, Ha. Do we have a spell checker on the Forum?

Marvin

Marvin · 02-07-2001, 09:58 AM

Dok,

Hey, I did not think about this for the FAQ, but if you can clean up my spelling (ha, ha) if would be good to add. This is a question that is always coming up.

Marvin

Dok · 02-07-2001, 08:15 PM

Dok · 02-07-2001, 08:40 PM

BILL · 02-07-2001, 10:28 PM

Ok, the P-38 with the 'flamingo' finish (not really that dramatic) is NOT a cyq but a byf manufactured in 1944 and is in the 1400x serial block. To describe it more accurately, now that I am looking at it..it has areas and parts that are a more pronounced reddish color. I see that Marvin has given a great detailed explanation on how this happens during wartime production. I would imagine that it would have been carrying a rejection tag on it if wartime schedules weren't so horrendous. It has a 99+% finish (and I am picky) or I probably wouldn't have picked it up and kept it so long. Seems like there was a time when everyone had at least two P-38s for sale. They are nice but not half as addictive as Lugers.

02-08-2001, 04:38 AM

Yes; it does. As it is most correct.

02-05-2001, 05:31 PM	#1
Dok RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Bermuda (Eat Your Heart Out) Posts: 1,626 Thanks: 0 Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts	Ted's Plum Luger... has been added to the Owner's Corner.

02-05-2001, 05:54 PM	#2
Ted User Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: SC Posts: 726 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: Ted's Plum Luger... Danke, Herr Doktor!

02-06-2001, 05:38 PM	#3
BILL User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Western Washington Posts: 826 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: Ted's Plum Luger... Most might think that the plum color on the Luger is unusual, but I have an original finish P-38 that has almost the exact same color but a little darker. It came this way from the factory and was the result of the inability during WWII to maintain high quality control standards. During peace time the bluing process was more stringently maintained and any reddish or plum colored pistols either were scrapped or reworked. (I actually enjoy a little variation..but Ted, no pink ones, ok?)

02-06-2001, 06:42 PM	#4
G.T. Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Chandler Arizona Posts: 3,485 Thanks: 1,283 Thanked 3,581 Times in 989 Posts	Plum? BILL, What's the date and serial range of your P.38? GT

02-06-2001, 07:10 PM	#5
Ted User Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: SC Posts: 726 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: Ted's Plum Luger... My daughter has a pink Luger squirt gun, I will have to post a picture now! I am raising them right! TED

02-06-2001, 08:28 PM	#6
BILL User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Western Washington Posts: 826 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: Plum? I will post that info on the WWII P-38 (within the next few days..it's "put away"). Wouldn't it be nice to have the room that would allow you to just keep everything out where you can enjoy it all the time? Maybe someday. (Just off the top of my head..it is a late war cyq, serial number to follow).

02-07-2001, 06:49 AM	#7
Marvin User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Upstate S.C. Posts: 1,132 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: Ted's Plum Luger... Bill, The subject of the Plum Color has been a good subject for many years and I agree that the reason is quality control. BUT, the real reason this plum color happens is that the bluing solution is set to a certain temperature, with a certain concentration of bluing salts, and a certain type steel and steel hardness. If any of these variables change, there will be changes in the bluing color. What happened on Lugers nad P.38s that exhibit the Plum Color is due to the "work Hardening" of the steel during the manufacturing process. A piece of steel when machined should certain speed and feeds for the cutter which do not overheat the piece of steel being machined. During the war, the machine operators were rtying to produce the parts as fast as possible and still make sure they passed inspection. If you will look at a P.38 frame near the rails, the machinging marks noramlly are very evident, and you may see the plum color there and not on the lower half of the frame. When fast feed rates are used in cutting the metal, and you have a coolant flow on the steel, it will do what is called "work harden". This is the same as if it were heat treated. This change in hardness of the steel will not blue the same as the rest of the steel that is not as hard. In a manufacturing operation for wartime, thi9s would not be a reason to make changes in the time, temperature, and salt concentration for the bluing bath, so they set these parameters for a middle of the road approach to bluing. The protection to the steel is almost as good as a high quality blue, so the pistol passes all inspections. As with any waring country, even the US, the quality of finish deteriorated as the war progressed. The Germans were not dumb and did not maufacture any weapons that were not safe for their troops to use. The last few weeks of the war when there was no control, the quality did drop, but not until then. Marvin

02-07-2001, 08:06 AM	#8
Dok RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Bermuda (Eat Your Heart Out) Posts: 1,626 Thanks: 0 Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts	What a great explaination... maybe THIS belongs in the FAQ??? Yes? No?

02-07-2001, 09:17 AM	#9
Hugh RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Southeast Texas Swamp Posts: 2,460 Thanks: 2 Thanked 165 Times in 64 Posts	Yes, but clean up Marvins typo errors! (EO

02-07-2001, 09:56 AM	#10
Marvin User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Upstate S.C. Posts: 1,132 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: Yes, but clean up Marvins typo errors! Hugh, Thanks for mentioning my typos. Usually I know when it happens, but I have just barely had time to read the Forum the past couple of weeks. I will try to keep my spelling a little better in the future!! Ha, Ha, Ha. Do we have a spell checker on the Forum? Marvin

02-07-2001, 09:58 AM	#11
Marvin User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Upstate S.C. Posts: 1,132 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: What a great explaination... Dok, Hey, I did not think about this for the FAQ, but if you can clean up my spelling (ha, ha) if would be good to add. This is a question that is always coming up. Marvin

02-07-2001, 08:15 PM	#12
Dok RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Bermuda (Eat Your Heart Out) Posts: 1,626 Thanks: 0 Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts	Consider it done! (EOM)

02-07-2001, 08:40 PM	#13
Dok RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Bermuda (Eat Your Heart Out) Posts: 1,626 Thanks: 0 Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts	IT HAS BEEN ADDED TO THE FAQ! (EOM)

02-07-2001, 10:28 PM	#14
BILL User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Western Washington Posts: 826 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: Plum? Ok, the P-38 with the 'flamingo' finish (not really that dramatic) is NOT a cyq but a byf manufactured in 1944 and is in the 1400x serial block. To describe it more accurately, now that I am looking at it..it has areas and parts that are a more pronounced reddish color. I see that Marvin has given a great detailed explanation on how this happens during wartime production. I would imagine that it would have been carrying a rejection tag on it if wartime schedules weren't so horrendous. It has a 99+% finish (and I am picky) or I probably wouldn't have picked it up and kept it so long. Seems like there was a time when everyone had at least two P-38s for sale. They are nice but not half as addictive as Lugers.

02-08-2001, 04:38 AM	#15
Joe DeLong Guest Posts: n/a	Re: What a great explaination... Yes; it does. As it is most correct.