DWM - Retailer Marked Luger - Information request

[ski]

I have a DWM Luger that is retailer marked - A.F. Stoeger Inc New York. I know a little about military Lugers but limited knowledge on commercial Lugers. What info can you tell me about it? Are A.F. Stoeger Inc marked Lugers common?

Thanks in advance.

[Hugo Borchardt]

Very nice and interesting. Does it have an American Eagle above the chamber? Is the extractor marked "loaded"?

I look forward to comments from the experts. Stoegers are often faked, and are difficult to classify and validate!

Clark

[Ron Wood]

I do not believe that this is an original Stoeger marking.

[Edward Tinker]

I am afraid I don't like the serial number on the front, the last three digits seem placed correctly, but the added 4 is off center.

I would have to look in Joop and don's book to see the serial range of these Stoegers...

[Patronen]

I don't know if Kenyon's book is out of date on this subject or not, but I had it handy for the moment and on page 244 it gives a ser# range of 400v-463v.

[ski]

No it does not have an American Eagle above the chamber. Thanks everybody for the responses.

Edward if you could look it up for me, I would appreciate it so I figure out what I am dealing with here.

Thanks all

[drbuster]

I agree with Ron!

[Ron Smith]

I don't know much about these, but it lacks the Patent and Registration markings on the right frame rail commonly found on "A.F.S." marked Lugers.

Are there other legitimate A.F.S. pieces that do not have those markings ?

[MFC]

Originally Posted by Ron Smith

I don't know much about these, but it lacks the Patent and Registration markings on the right frame rail commonly found on "A.F.S." marked Lugers.

Are there other legitimate A.F.S. pieces that do not have those markings ?

Yes. The first ones are called '2 line' Stoegers. Stoeger requested the third line and was added by Mauser in the early 30's. These are the Stoegers in the 'v' suffix range. They are '3 line' Stoegers.

[Ron Smith]

Thanks Mike. I wasn't aware of that.

Ron

[mrerick]

Is it in .30 Luger caliber (rather than 9mm)?

Basically a DWM Alphabet commercial with the addition of the Stoeger mark?

Marc

[alanint]

Here is the marking of a purportedly authentic example:

http://www.dismalriverarmory.com/lugerdwmstoeger.html

For $5295, you'd think they'd have a lint free photo! 8^)

[glock30]

from an OLD article I have on Stoeger Lugers, at the time this article was written, only 3 records were found for 3 Stoeger LUgers being sold in the USA, but here...there is ALSO a Stoeger that WAS right on this very forum, it is in absolute mint condition AND it is devoid the USA registration stamp also, so this would indicate this stamp devoid USA STAMP is real, IT DOES not need the USA registration stamp to be legit. I have the picture of this mint Stoeger On my FLICKR page and it does not have this USA registration mark. I can provide this image of this mint Stoeger without the USA registration stamp as I copied it right off this forum if you guys need to see it, it looks exaclty like this mark on Ski's Luger, so it can be real. I think it is genuine, and it is not common at all. BTW, Alanant, that stamp in your picture looks suspect??

[alanint]

The difference between the photo I provided and the pistol being discusssed is that the "Stoeger" mark on the image I posted is Stamped in, (see the raised metal around the "inc.") while the example being discussed has the Stoeger mark engraved in, which virtually any trophy store can do for you. The pistol being discussed is FAKE.

[glock30]

Here is the Stoeger Luger as copied off this Luger forum, that no one said was faked, or fake because it lacks the Luger Registration US Patent stamp, but only says AF Stoeger INC NY? SO...expain....and this gun is too mint, too good to be fake, and no one on here said it was as it was posted. Just curious. I never disagreed with anyone. This bears the one stamp. It was assumed genuine by you guys. SO why do you think this was isn't? It didn't look right to me either, but with the pictures of this one, it looks like the exact same stamp minus the Germany....so....I WANT to learn, that is all guys. NOT saying your wrong...I never saw any stamp with die that deep as in Ant's image, that is all. Thanks everyone.

[alanint]

Originally Posted by glock30

Yes we said fake, but there are Stoegers without that Registration stamp, there was one right on here on this forum that no one questioned that bears The Stoeger mark without the USA Reistration scroll , that is all I said, so b4 they ran the serial numbers to determine it was fake, how did you determine this weapon was fake just because the stamp lacks the USA reg mark? OR did you determine it was fake by the serial number, if you did, sorry. I thought you all said it was fake for the lack of the 2nd stamp, the patent stamp.

This first picture of it bears a mark identical to a mint Stoeger on this forum. I am trying to upload the actual images of that MINT Stoeger on this very forum that bears the exact same stamp as this one,(I copied the pictures) it does not have the Luger registration patent mark, and no one on that thread said that gun was fake. Just wondering why Ron thought this mark was fake, I thought it was also. BUT my question, why did none of you call out that other Stoeger? The files I have of this gun are bitmap and too large, and I am trying to find the thread but have no success. Are you mad, LOL. I will eventually figure out how to post those images.

If you are addressing my comments, you've gotten way ahead of yourself. I never stated that an authentic Stoeger had to have the second registration stamp nor did I ever mention the serial number. I am stating an opinion based on the really poor quality of the engraving itself, (letters of varying size, not exactly straight and of a quality and depth that tells me it was done with a pantograph or Trophy Store quality engraving equipment. Certainly not by Stoeger Arms). I also never weighed in on the thread you recently posted, so how could I have a varying opinion? While I did not comment on the other "Stoeger", I can certainly see that the engraving is of a much more professional quality and would have raised fewer initial alarm bells than the example under discussion.
"Are you mad, LOL"...what kind of question is that?

[glock30]

NO , not at all! Not at ALL, just wondering why Ron thinks that Stoeger mark is faked, when it is exact like the one on the Luger all you guys retain as being a real example, as in the image I posted that was right off this very forum. that is all. That's it.. I even deleted my last comment so there woud be no misunderstandings. I think the serial looks strange. DID they run the serial number?? It just confuses me, because the Stoeger stamp on the real one on your forum looks exactly like the stamp on this gun. MM per MM even. I blew it up and measured it proportioned. Something about the gun doesn't look right to me either honeslty.

[alanint]

Look back at my comments again. My kneejerk opinion that it was fake is precisely because it looks nothing like the other pistol's engraving. One is uniform, level and very professionally cut. The other is uneven and very clearly cut by hand or low quality machine. Look at the two "e's in "Stoeger", could they be any more different from each other? Or the "W" in "New" which does not follow the slant of the first two letters or the oversized "r" in "York"?

This is hand work of the lowest quality compared to the other pistol's engraving.

[glock30]

Right, well what of this, again, just wondering, these look alike, this was right off your forum and said original, side by side, the stamps like identical. Can there be different strikings??NOT disputing, just wondering. Thanks you.

Note; The one on top is on this Forum and considered totally original
The bottom one is Ski's Luger that is an alleged fake, OR IS.
Than there is your picture...

So the question is, Are there different manners in which they were stamped?? These two stampings on both guns look completely identical to me. I mean the letters and how they are shaped, are exact. The A of A.F. Stoeger is even in the exact same location, right under the very front of the breechblock.

I do agree with you, just wondering on this as being so close...that is all. For Ski's lacks the Germany stamp.

[John Sabato]

While this is a very nice looking Luger, I have to agree with Ron Wood, and Alanint, that the Stoeger marking is not genuine. All of the other pistols shown in photos in this thread can be clearly seen to be STAMPED. The markings on the original photos in post #1 have been ENGRAVED...

I would accept this pistol as a Stoeger Luger...