1941 P08 Mauser Found - Page 3

josef · 09-10-2004, 10:54 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by minigun:
So what happened to the wood grips to it? Did they corrode very badly?

It's hard to believe that this Luger was smoothered in greese and it still corroded. How can that be? How did the moisture get past the greese?

Also, I'd be interested to know too on how you find a sight to search? Do you research the place first or do you know by living in the area where things could be?

Thanks<hr /></blockquote>Good question about the grips, I will ask Jan. I suspect he is attempting to clean them properly. I do not know how it got corroded so badly, it should have been better preserved I thought also.
About the finds, well, my family live in the area where Schorner's 9th Army surrendered en masse in the last days of the war, on the long journey to reach the American lines west of Prague. There was fighting in those last several weeks, along with literally thousands of sodiers (Heer, SS and Luftwaffe, as well as civilians) fleeing approaching Red Army troops. Many members of my family remember those days, photographic evidence still exists of the surrenders, ect. My Uncle has shown Jan and I areas on our property where the Germans stayed on their last days or in captivity.
About this Luger find, I suspect Jan had spoken to a local.
My Uncle and I spoke to a man, who remembered as a young boy, seeing transport trucks pull off a side road, off unloaded numerous German soldiers, who stripped off their decorations and placed them into a small box. An officer then took the box and dumped these medals into the ditch, then the transports headed west. Almost 60 years later, we took this information, found the spot within a few minutes, and I spent the next several days (and subsequent years in the same area) digging. I recovered over 35 close combat clasps, over a dozen general assault badges, and numerous other insignia and such. The best of these items now are in a display case on my wall, remarkably well preserved, some show no evidence of being in the ground. In the nearby lake where several hundred German soldiers were instructed to surrender over the last few weeks, we found more badges, as well as my P08 and P38. I also recovered a Getsapo Disc in near excellent condition (this was hand inspected by Don Bible in 2000 and authenticated by him). My collection pales in comparison to Jan's, however. His finds are more numerous and miraculous. I suppose research and word of mouth are the most common ways of finding sites to dig. But you can go along almost any ditch, forest or park in the area and find something interesting. I can honestly say I have NEVER dug a grave or battlefield, nor has Jan, and that every area we search has been either private property owned by our family or we have been given permission to search. My Luger, and I suspect Jan's also, are likely the greatest finds we have had, and I feel fortunate to have it right next to my other Lugers. Thanks to you all for listening to me ramble and to show Jan's timepiece. Take care,
Joe

Ron Smith · 09-10-2004, 04:54 PM

Josef, The grips probably crumbled , due to the grease saturation. Grease will break down wood, over a period of time. It saturates and breaks down the bonding fibers. The wood will just rot.

The metal probably corroded because the surface of the metal will retain moisture in the pores,in a dampish climate. The greese seals in the moisture. Over time the metal will "sweat" under the grease. The moisture is trapped between the metal and the grease. Thus causes the corrosion, which feeds on itself. and spreads.

Ron

josef · 09-10-2004, 05:08 PM

You are likely right Ron, thanks for this. Amazingly the Luger I found had the wooden handles quite well intact, afert 60 years under water in a lakebed. I have shown this one before here, but here is a comparison to Jan's beauty. The handles lasted better than the metal itself. Thanks for looking

Vlim · 09-10-2004, 05:34 PM

Hi,

An interesting find indeed. As someone a bit unrespectfully, but correctly stated the monetary value is limited at best.

The true value of this piece comes from it's situation. This is a timecapsule, pretty unmessed with. So I'm very interested in a report detailing markings, numbering, etc... as this appears to be a genuine SS-issue P08. The commercial Mauser banner is interesting.

I take it that the Finnish loading tool visible in one of the images was not part of the find

The situation described by the eye-witness makes a lot of sense, as especially those more questionable units would have tried to obliterate any clues that would identify them as SS or Gestapo as the Russians would have had shot them immediately after capture. Most tried to dash towards the Western allies in order to surrender and live.

lugerholsterrepair · 09-10-2004, 06:26 PM

Joe, I would not thank someone with no more to say than something negative. You took the time to show us all this fabulous, interesting piece of history. I think his opinion has no significant value whatsoever!!! .................Jerry Burney

josef · 09-10-2004, 06:52 PM

Thanks Gentlemen, yes Jan had the Finnish tool beforehand, sorry I forgot to mention this. About negative comments, I felt obligated to respond to it. As a "digger" I am used to people being critical and judgemental without the appreciation or facts at hand, but this forum board and its' members have been very good to me. So I always thank those who respond to my posts and try to be courteous and respect each members' views. I would hate to think that someone would be "afraid" to post a question or show off one of their finds because of another member's negativity. As I have said before, I am grateful for the membership here who, I believe for the most part, look past the scrap, pitting and rust, and see the historical relevance here. Once again, thank you Gentlemen, I enjoyed representing Jan's great find with him!
Joe

Johnny C. Kitchens · 09-10-2004, 08:52 PM

It is amazing to actually see a Luger untouched since the end of World War II. That gives it a real touch that few Lugers most get to see will never have. I can look at my Luger and wonder, and have no idea what so ever of where it has been. That one has at least some of its history still intact. We all can wonder if there are more still to be found!!!

G.W. Gill · 09-11-2004, 01:26 AM

Wonderful posts Josef and Jan. Thank You!

Jan CZ · 09-11-2004, 03:45 AM

Hi Gentlemen,
I must say it is very exciting to read all your comments!
The grips are mounted back as I was drying them pressed between layers of newspapers when taking other pics. I am sending new pics to my friend Joe knowing he will resize them and post for me with pleasure.
Concerning that bad outside corrosion I think when items coated with grease are exposed longer time to water it will corroded more quick and deeper than without it. Water and grease makes probably special mix which is stable and supports countinuing corrosion. When not preserved with grease items are coated with rust but under this rust they are surprisingly well preserved.
I heard Germans used special mix of grease and wax to coat guns for long term storage. I remember 10 years ago when starting detecting my friend told me about his find cca 30 years ago - he found wooden box with may be 20 pistols preserved in this mix. Unfortunatelly somebody saw him, took it away and probably throwed that away at nearby drowed stone quarry. I must still think about it!!

josef · 09-11-2004, 09:59 AM

Here are the pics of the fully assembled P08, thanks for looking! I am away for a week but Jan will be posting. Thanks all! Love those grips!

minigun · 09-11-2004, 10:01 AM

I still think this is the neatest thing in a great while. Can you post the Nazi medals too? OMG! The grips survived better than the metal did.....wow!

Oh, did I miss something too? The way I understand the story, you found this piece under a tree? And about how far underground was it do you think? I mean did you have to dig very far and did you have a metal detector or what drove you to that spot? (I'm just really interested in how it all came about). Thanks

Ron Smith · 09-11-2004, 10:39 AM

I am truly amazed that the grips survived at all. Let alone in such great condition.

Ron

josef · 09-11-2004, 12:07 PM

Thanks all! Will post pics of medals when I return next week. Take care and thanks for looking!
Joe

Nomadr · 09-12-2004, 10:51 AM

I put a bid on a German helmet (battle field find) on ebay last year. It did not meet the reserve and the owner contacted me and offered it to me along with some other relics he found with the helmet including an ID tag, badge, and some coins.
After we made a deal and I purchased the items he contacted me again to buy more items he found. Included in the email of the items he was offering were PICs of human skulls pilled on top of each other and what appeared to me to be many "graves" dug up!
It blew my mind that anything like this would be aloud by any government. He explained that they were not graves and it was just a excavation site they were researching in a old forest.
I quickly replied "NO thank you" and left my humble opinion!
Bob

Nomadr · 09-12-2004, 10:54 AM

Sorry, I know I'm leaving the subject about the luger.

minigun · 09-12-2004, 04:00 PM

I don't know, the relics would have been okay to purchase I think, but I would have passed on the human remains.

Nomadr · 09-12-2004, 11:27 PM

He was not selling the human remains. But just knowing the relics were coming from (in my opinion) graves, made them to me non desirable.

Jan CZ · 09-13-2004, 12:34 AM

To Minigun: This was really a metall detecting find. In area where my friend lives near border there are large forrests where you can found such boxes, ID tags, guns, medals etc. All burried or throwed away by German troops heading to US captivity.
This partiall found was at place of old forrest with threestumps, full of blackberries, high grass - a bit difficult to searh through.

Steinar · 09-13-2004, 03:53 AM

Amazing!
Just one note regarding the rust.. my grandfather wraped greased clothing around firearms, put them in boxes and dug them down about 0.5m into the grown around his home (where I live now) during the war. He did't have time to do that with all firearms, so he hang about half of them up in trees with the same greeased clothing around. Some 10-15 years later he digg out the one of the boxes in the ground, they where rusty and not usuable, so he left the rest of the boxes in the ground.
But the interessting thing is that those guns in the trees where still in good shape!

When he was alive, he used to remind me of this. He explained it with some kind of upward wind at the root of the tree. I sometimes work in the forrest, and I still use the root of big trees as storage of exuipment and small freshwater boats during the winter

I made some findings in Kirkenes btw. But not near as good shape as that Josef's Luger.
There is a LOT of remains from WW2 there. The solidiers of the military training camp there use one day every year to clean up the erea. But not many collectable items to find, mostly rusty helmets etc.

Kent C · 09-13-2004, 04:45 PM

I just had a Luger restored by THOR..[Teds luger strawing servive} It was very badly pitted from sitting in its holster for untold years. To say its now beatiful, would be an understatement!!! The gun is absolulty magnificent!!!! Amazing resoration..all pit filled..DWM logo was pitted..its now MINT!!! you would have to see it to believe it!!!! VERY happy customer!!!!!!!!!

09-10-2004, 10:54 AM	#41
josef User Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: CANADA Posts: 194 Thanks: 4 Thanked 4 Times in 2 Posts	</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by minigun: <strong>So what happened to the wood grips to it? Did they corrode very badly? It's hard to believe that this Luger was smoothered in greese and it still corroded. How can that be? How did the moisture get past the greese? Also, I'd be interested to know too on how you find a sight to search? Do you research the place first or do you know by living in the area where things could be? Thanks</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Good question about the grips, I will ask Jan. I suspect he is attempting to clean them properly. I do not know how it got corroded so badly, it should have been better preserved I thought also. About the finds, well, my family live in the area where Schorner's 9th Army surrendered en masse in the last days of the war, on the long journey to reach the American lines west of Prague. There was fighting in those last several weeks, along with literally thousands of sodiers (Heer, SS and Luftwaffe, as well as civilians) fleeing approaching Red Army troops. Many members of my family remember those days, photographic evidence still exists of the surrenders, ect. My Uncle has shown Jan and I areas on our property where the Germans stayed on their last days or in captivity. About this Luger find, I suspect Jan had spoken to a local. My Uncle and I spoke to a man, who remembered as a young boy, seeing transport trucks pull off a side road, off unloaded numerous German soldiers, who stripped off their decorations and placed them into a small box. An officer then took the box and dumped these medals into the ditch, then the transports headed west. Almost 60 years later, we took this information, found the spot within a few minutes, and I spent the next several days (and subsequent years in the same area) digging. I recovered over 35 close combat clasps, over a dozen general assault badges, and numerous other insignia and such. The best of these items now are in a display case on my wall, remarkably well preserved, some show no evidence of being in the ground. In the nearby lake where several hundred German soldiers were instructed to surrender over the last few weeks, we found more badges, as well as my P08 and P38. I also recovered a Getsapo Disc in near excellent condition (this was hand inspected by Don Bible in 2000 and authenticated by him). My collection pales in comparison to Jan's, however. His finds are more numerous and miraculous. I suppose research and word of mouth are the most common ways of finding sites to dig. But you can go along almost any ditch, forest or park in the area and find something interesting. I can honestly say I have NEVER dug a grave or battlefield, nor has Jan, and that every area we search has been either private property owned by our family or we have been given permission to search. My Luger, and I suspect Jan's also, are likely the greatest finds we have had, and I feel fortunate to have it right next to my other Lugers. Thanks to you all for listening to me ramble and to show Jan's timepiece. Take care, Joe

09-10-2004, 04:54 PM	#42
Ron Smith User Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Orygun Posts: 4,243 Thanks: 118 Thanked 245 Times in 150 Posts	Josef, The grips probably crumbled , due to the grease saturation. Grease will break down wood, over a period of time. It saturates and breaks down the bonding fibers. The wood will just rot. The metal probably corroded because the surface of the metal will retain moisture in the pores,in a dampish climate. The greese seals in the moisture. Over time the metal will "sweat" under the grease. The moisture is trapped between the metal and the grease. Thus causes the corrosion, which feeds on itself. and spreads. Ron __________________ I Still Need DWM side plate #49... if anyone runs across a nice one. What ~Rudyard Kipling~ said...

09-10-2004, 06:26 PM	#45
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,760 Thanks: 4,848 Thanked 3,099 Times in 1,426 Posts	Joe, I would not thank someone with no more to say than something negative. You took the time to show us all this fabulous, interesting piece of history. I think his opinion has no significant value whatsoever!!! .................Jerry Burney __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

09-10-2004, 08:52 PM	#47
Johnny C. Kitchens User Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Arlington, Texas Posts: 518 Thanks: 0 Thanked 20 Times in 8 Posts	It is amazing to actually see a Luger untouched since the end of World War II. That gives it a real touch that few Lugers most get to see will never have. I can look at my Luger and wonder, and have no idea what so ever of where it has been. That one has at least some of its history still intact. We all can wonder if there are more still to be found!!! __________________ Johnny C. Kitchens

09-11-2004, 10:39 AM	#52
Ron Smith User Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Orygun Posts: 4,243 Thanks: 118 Thanked 245 Times in 150 Posts	I am truly amazed that the grips survived at all. Let alone in such great condition. Ron __________________ I Still Need DWM side plate #49... if anyone runs across a nice one. What ~Rudyard Kipling~ said...

09-10-2004, 05:08 PM	#43
josef User Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: CANADA Posts: 194 Thanks: 4 Thanked 4 Times in 2 Posts	You are likely right Ron, thanks for this. Amazingly the Luger I found had the wooden handles quite well intact, afert 60 years under water in a lakebed. I have shown this one before here, but here is a comparison to Jan's beauty. The handles lasted better than the metal itself. Thanks for looking

09-10-2004, 05:34 PM	#44
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,032 Thanks: 1,018 Thanked 3,873 Times in 1,184 Posts	Hi, An interesting find indeed. As someone a bit unrespectfully, but correctly stated the monetary value is limited at best. The true value of this piece comes from it's situation. This is a timecapsule, pretty unmessed with. So I'm very interested in a report detailing markings, numbering, etc... as this appears to be a genuine SS-issue P08. The commercial Mauser banner is interesting. I take it that the Finnish loading tool visible in one of the images was not part of the find The situation described by the eye-witness makes a lot of sense, as especially those more questionable units would have tried to obliterate any clues that would identify them as SS or Gestapo as the Russians would have had shot them immediately after capture. Most tried to dash towards the Western allies in order to surrender and live.

09-10-2004, 06:52 PM	#46
josef User Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: CANADA Posts: 194 Thanks: 4 Thanked 4 Times in 2 Posts	Thanks Gentlemen, yes Jan had the Finnish tool beforehand, sorry I forgot to mention this. About negative comments, I felt obligated to respond to it. As a "digger" I am used to people being critical and judgemental without the appreciation or facts at hand, but this forum board and its' members have been very good to me. So I always thank those who respond to my posts and try to be courteous and respect each members' views. I would hate to think that someone would be "afraid" to post a question or show off one of their finds because of another member's negativity. As I have said before, I am grateful for the membership here who, I believe for the most part, look past the scrap, pitting and rust, and see the historical relevance here. Once again, thank you Gentlemen, I enjoyed representing Jan's great find with him! Joe

09-11-2004, 01:26 AM	#48
G.W. Gill User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Southeastern USA Posts: 369 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Wonderful posts Josef and Jan. Thank You!

09-11-2004, 03:45 AM	#49
Jan CZ User Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Czech republic Posts: 5 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Hi Gentlemen, I must say it is very exciting to read all your comments! The grips are mounted back as I was drying them pressed between layers of newspapers when taking other pics. I am sending new pics to my friend Joe knowing he will resize them and post for me with pleasure. Concerning that bad outside corrosion I think when items coated with grease are exposed longer time to water it will corroded more quick and deeper than without it. Water and grease makes probably special mix which is stable and supports countinuing corrosion. When not preserved with grease items are coated with rust but under this rust they are surprisingly well preserved. I heard Germans used special mix of grease and wax to coat guns for long term storage. I remember 10 years ago when starting detecting my friend told me about his find cca 30 years ago - he found wooden box with may be 20 pistols preserved in this mix. Unfortunatelly somebody saw him, took it away and probably throwed that away at nearby drowed stone quarry. I must still think about it!!

09-11-2004, 09:59 AM	#50
josef User Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: CANADA Posts: 194 Thanks: 4 Thanked 4 Times in 2 Posts	Here are the pics of the fully assembled P08, thanks for looking! I am away for a week but Jan will be posting. Thanks all! Love those grips!

09-11-2004, 10:01 AM	#51
minigun User Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Texas Posts: 424 Thanks: 15 Thanked 19 Times in 14 Posts	I still think this is the neatest thing in a great while. Can you post the Nazi medals too? OMG! The grips survived better than the metal did.....wow! Oh, did I miss something too? The way I understand the story, you found this piece under a tree? And about how far underground was it do you think? I mean did you have to dig very far and did you have a metal detector or what drove you to that spot? (I'm just really interested in how it all came about). Thanks

09-11-2004, 12:07 PM	#53
josef User Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: CANADA Posts: 194 Thanks: 4 Thanked 4 Times in 2 Posts	Thanks all! Will post pics of medals when I return next week. Take care and thanks for looking! Joe

09-12-2004, 10:51 AM	#54
Nomadr Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 276 Thanks: 16 Thanked 28 Times in 22 Posts	I put a bid on a German helmet (battle field find) on ebay last year. It did not meet the reserve and the owner contacted me and offered it to me along with some other relics he found with the helmet including an ID tag, badge, and some coins. After we made a deal and I purchased the items he contacted me again to buy more items he found. Included in the email of the items he was offering were PICs of human skulls pilled on top of each other and what appeared to me to be many "graves" dug up! It blew my mind that anything like this would be aloud by any government. He explained that they were not graves and it was just a excavation site they were researching in a old forest. I quickly replied "NO thank you" and left my humble opinion! Bob

09-12-2004, 10:54 AM	#55
Nomadr Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 276 Thanks: 16 Thanked 28 Times in 22 Posts	Sorry, I know I'm leaving the subject about the luger.

09-12-2004, 04:00 PM	#56
minigun User Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Texas Posts: 424 Thanks: 15 Thanked 19 Times in 14 Posts	I don't know, the relics would have been okay to purchase I think, but I would have passed on the human remains.

09-12-2004, 11:27 PM	#57
Nomadr Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 276 Thanks: 16 Thanked 28 Times in 22 Posts	He was not selling the human remains. But just knowing the relics were coming from (in my opinion) graves, made them to me non desirable.

09-13-2004, 12:34 AM	#58
Jan CZ User Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Czech republic Posts: 5 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	To Minigun: This was really a metall detecting find. In area where my friend lives near border there are large forrests where you can found such boxes, ID tags, guns, medals etc. All burried or throwed away by German troops heading to US captivity. This partiall found was at place of old forrest with threestumps, full of blackberries, high grass - a bit difficult to searh through.

09-13-2004, 03:53 AM	#59
Steinar User Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 1,538 Thanks: 18 Thanked 36 Times in 21 Posts	Amazing! Just one note regarding the rust.. my grandfather wraped greased clothing around firearms, put them in boxes and dug them down about 0.5m into the grown around his home (where I live now) during the war. He did't have time to do that with all firearms, so he hang about half of them up in trees with the same greeased clothing around. Some 10-15 years later he digg out the one of the boxes in the ground, they where rusty and not usuable, so he left the rest of the boxes in the ground. But the interessting thing is that those guns in the trees where still in good shape! When he was alive, he used to remind me of this. He explained it with some kind of upward wind at the root of the tree. I sometimes work in the forrest, and I still use the root of big trees as storage of exuipment and small freshwater boats during the winter I made some findings in Kirkenes btw. But not near as good shape as that Josef's Luger. There is a LOT of remains from WW2 there. The solidiers of the military training camp there use one day every year to clean up the erea. But not many collectable items to find, mostly rusty helmets etc. __________________ Previously known as Morgan Kane

09-13-2004, 04:45 PM	#60
Kent C New User Join Date: Sep 2004 Posts: 2 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I just had a Luger restored by THOR..[Teds luger strawing servive} It was very badly pitted from sitting in its holster for untold years. To say its now beatiful, would be an understatement!!! The gun is absolulty magnificent!!!! Amazing resoration..all pit filled..DWM logo was pitted..its now MINT!!! you would have to see it to believe it!!!! VERY happy customer!!!!!!!!!