SS-marking on luger - Page 2

ichabod · 12-10-2002, 09:51 PM

Heydrich & all - re: Gew98s in S.S. hands. I remember reading on a Mauser rifle message board an O.S.S. account of S.S. guards in Belgium "armed with obsolete 1888 model rifles" . There was a long thread about whether the O.S.S. agent meant "1898" but the general consensus was that the agent (maybe Col. Rex Applegate ?) was very familiar German small arms and made mention of the year model "1888" precisely to illustrate the hodge-podge of weapons used by the "elite" S.S. Personally, I like the WW1 and older Mausers - there's a lot less fraud in the Imperial stuff. I've never heard of anyone faking a Fraktur proof. Also, my import-marked dou43 98k cost me $120 in 1999 but my 1891 Amberg Gew88/05 was just $50 in '98 and my near mint 1891 Loewe Gew88/05 was just $60 in 2001 ! - $110 for TWO non-import stamped rifles whose lineage can never be questioned - yessir, I like the oldies.

Leon DeSpain · 12-10-2002, 10:56 PM

To all;

Whether the SS marking in question is real or not, I think we are experiencing the real phenomenon of the Internet. For the first time, collectors from all over the world can compare notes. So, a marking that was seen one time by a collector who doesn't know what to make of it suddenly shows up in other places also. I think this is a strong postive for the collecting community and will add greatly to our experience and knowledge. I commend the web hosts of this site for their help in this endeavor.

Regards, Leon

Edward Tinker · 12-10-2002, 11:02 PM

Good point leon.

The internet makes guns, parts and literature available that could never be seen before!

I mean, how often do most guys come across a AE, Artillery or Dutch gun?

And you look on gunbroker and wham, your blood gets hot.

On the other hand, bad guys can copy "rare" marks, scan them in and screw up the average colelctor.

Dieter08 · 12-11-2002, 05:43 AM

Hi guys, here is a not so good pic of what we are talking. It's my Erfurt from 1913. The stamp seems for me to be real because the right wing of the eagle and the "1" of "Wa" is not to see because the gun has some deep rust-marks, also on the stamp! If it is a fake, how did he deep-rust the eagle???

Dieter08 · 12-12-2002, 05:51 AM

Here is a better pic of the SS-stamp. Your opinions please!

Leon DeSpain · 12-12-2002, 02:58 PM

Hi Dieter,

Your picture certainly lends credibility to the stamp. There will be those who ask "When was the stamp actually placed there?" and also say "That rust could have formed post-war". Both arguments are reasonable. I now have more confidence that the stamp is original but there are still doubts. Until the stamp shows up more and in more cases where it is most likely not a post-war enhancement, I don't think we can be absolutely sure and may never be. A big plus would be to have the vet who captured it declare that the gun was not altered post-war especially if no premium was placed on the stamp.

Regards, Leon

Dieter08 · 12-13-2002, 04:17 AM

Maybe the stamp is post-war, but then it has to be done before 1960 because the last owner owned it for over 40 years, and he told me, that this stamp wasn't made in that time. Is it possible, that in the 50's someone owned such a stamp? Why should he stamp a gun, which had no value in that time? Many better ones were available. Maybe it is a fake, but for me not real believeable.

Dieter08 · 12-16-2002, 01:06 PM

Hi Leon and others. The rust is one field from the old stamps to the Wa1. The runes are clear.

John Sabato · 12-16-2002, 01:27 PM

The "intensity" of the SS runes stamp is well illustrated by this enlarged photo that is also shown in a negative image (bottom photo)...

It is pretty obvious that the SS runes were not applied at the same time as the other stamps on the gun because of the difference in the intensity of the stamper's strike...

Leon DeSpain · 12-16-2002, 02:23 PM

Hi Dieter,

I saw the stamping difference that you are talking about in the original photo. My take on it was that when it was stamped the die wasn't being held perpendicular but instead angled back and to the left which would account for the runes being struck deeply and the right wing of the eagle being struck so light that what appears to be a small amount of corrosion virutally eliminated the impression of the right wing. Stamps being struck at an angle is somewhat common. I have seen it numerous times.

I still certainly question the stamp but it makes for some interesting conversation and conjecture. I wish there were more examples or someone had something concrete concerning the stamp either one way or the other.

Regards, Leon

Leon DeSpain · 12-16-2002, 10:51 PM

Sorry John,

Shame on me. I was in such a hurry that, when I saw the pictures, I assumed that Dieter had posted them.

BTW, I forwarded the picture of the Luger stamp to a long time collector/researcher that specialized in Third Reich (40 years). His opinion confirmed what I thought I was seeing about the die being struck at an angle. All personal opinion, of source.

He has mixed emotions about the authenticity of the stamp. Some of the info fits for him, some does not. He is primarily in doubt about the style of the eagle.

He said that the SS use of the Steyr Solothurn was historically accurate since they could get nothing like that thru military channels and they used that gun thoughout the war so having a SS stamp on that gun would not surprise him.

If I get more details or documentation from him, I will post them.

Regards, Leon

Karl F. Kleber · 12-20-2002, 02:45 AM

In my life I have handled several 10.000 Luger pistols and have never seen this stamp. Also on this is possible as the SS stole and robbed all guns they could lay their hands on in their desparate need for equipment for their troops. In contrary to the believe that the SS was well equipped, they got only what the Army, Airforce and Navy left over for them. If there had been any guns left in a place, the SS confiscated it.

Therefore - consider it that I might be real, just confiscated, marked and issued.

Karl

Dieter08 · 12-20-2002, 04:14 AM

Hello Karl, welcome to the forum, send me a mail to: Dieter08@web.de

hipwr223 · 12-20-2002, 08:22 AM

I am no expert on lugers, but if the SS procured the pistol after manufacture, it would stand to reason that the stamp would not have been added at the same time as the original proofs.

I would like to use the US procurment of shotguns as an example. In WW2 the US bought lots of shotguns right from commercial production(i.e. Remington M11, Ithaca M37, etc..) They also put martial markings on them when they purchased them. Obviously the stamps the Govt put on were not of the same variety, consistency, or depth as the stamps applied by the manufacturer. And the US property markings may have been added months or a year after the gun was actually produced.

Is that luger a fake??? Maybe. Maybe someone was honing their skills at deception and used a rough peice like that Erfurt to test the stamp on before applying it to a more desireable pistol???

I guess without any supporting evidence its all just conjecture.

interesting to discuss though.

John Sylvester

Leon DeSpain · 12-20-2002, 09:35 PM

Hi John,

I don't think there is any doubt that the stamp would have been added after manufacture. The SS didn't exist in 1913.

My feeling is that, if the stamp is real, it is either a property stamp or a rework stamp added by a SS arsenal. That would have likely been in the late '30's but the early '40's would not be out of the question.

The stamp is suspect but I am keeping an open mind as I don't think anyone really knows for sure, one way or the other.

Regards, Leon

Navy · 12-20-2002, 10:57 PM

Gentlemen,

I would opine that if one has to go to the lengths that these discussions are reaching to rationalize legitimacy, then something is terribly wrong. Occam's Razor is a good principle in both philosophy and collecting:the shortest logical answer is most likely the correct answer.

If you have to resort to "coulda, maybe dida and possibly hadda" then I would suggest you are barking up the wrong tree.

The markings on the takedown tool and the pistol, are clearly bogus, IMHO. One would have to really strain credulity to believe otherwise.

Tom A.

Leon DeSpain · 12-22-2002, 05:52 PM

To Tom A,

I do not perceive that anyone is trying to rationalize legitimacy with this thread. What I believe we are looking for is simply the truth which has not been found to this point, IMHO.

Please, sir, indulge those of us who do not see things as clearly as you.

Thank you, Leon

hipwr223 · 12-22-2002, 06:21 PM

Leon,

I worded some of my post poorly. I am aware that this pistol was made well in advance of the SS. I was simply pointing out that some things may never be verifiable but real none the less. Like I said, when the Gov't...any Gov't agency has to procure material through unconventional means, it stands to reason that lots of variables will exisit. Markings and acceptance stamps included. I am not ready to jump too quickly to assumptions of authenticity as quick decisions can be short sighted.

John

JohnF · 12-22-2002, 09:28 PM

There comes a point in these discussions where only opinion remains. I do not have a picture of an SS armourer stamping these items - equally no-one has evidence of this marking being a known fak stamp. The key things here are:
1) This is a simple debate, no-one is trying to sell anything at a premium based on these markings.
2) The fact that we can have this debate demonstrates the power of the internet to disseminate information. One posting of this stamp brought out two more examples. Let's see what other information is out there in lofts and basements.
Best wishes to all for Christmas and the New Year,
Cheers,
John

MauserLugers · 12-22-2002, 10:29 PM

Hi,
More than likely the SS marks on the Luger and the takedown tool are bogus. There have been dies available for 50 years in Germany and the United States and are for sale currently. You can currently "order" any kind of a tool you desire from a certain "dealer", and this has been going on for years. This indicates that "craftsmen" have been "enhancing" variations for a long time. When a premium price can be obtained over a normal piece, you see the dies come out and pieces start showing up. An example of this is the Mauser Military Police variations where there are more fabricated pieces with a sear safety now than real examples. The same is true with the ss runes marked Lugers. Without absolute positive documentation of some kind, you more than likely have an enhanced variation. Another example is the reported 1945 Krieghoff examples where it was positively observed that a guy in the mid-east in the 50's or early 60's was building these in his shop. The dies were observed, the frames, and other parts. This was in the 50's, so don't fool yourself that this hasn't been going on for a long, long time! Stoegers are another example where there are more fabricated examples than real examples. It is interesting that these examples are just now showing up and that the major collectors that have search all over the world, have contacts all over the world, have not been able to find examples until just recently, and they have had access to major collections for the last 50 years. Just something to think about.

12-10-2002, 09:51 PM	#21
ichabod User Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 31 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Heydrich & all - re: Gew98s in S.S. hands. I remember reading on a Mauser rifle message board an O.S.S. account of S.S. guards in Belgium "armed with obsolete 1888 model rifles" . There was a long thread about whether the O.S.S. agent meant "1898" but the general consensus was that the agent (maybe Col. Rex Applegate ?) was very familiar German small arms and made mention of the year model "1888" precisely to illustrate the hodge-podge of weapons used by the "elite" S.S. Personally, I like the WW1 and older Mausers - there's a lot less fraud in the Imperial stuff. I've never heard of anyone faking a Fraktur proof. Also, my import-marked dou43 98k cost me $120 in 1999 but my 1891 Amberg Gew88/05 was just $50 in '98 and my near mint 1891 Loewe Gew88/05 was just $60 in 2001 ! - $110 for TWO non-import stamped rifles whose lineage can never be questioned - yessir, I like the oldies. __________________ "No snowflake ever feels responsible for the avalanche." Haywood Yasumi

12-10-2002, 11:02 PM	#23
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,909 Thanks: 1,986 Thanked 4,500 Times in 2,076 Posts	Good point leon. The internet makes guns, parts and literature available that could never be seen before! I mean, how often do most guys come across a AE, Artillery or Dutch gun? And you look on gunbroker and wham, your blood gets hot. On the other hand, bad guys can copy "rare" marks, scan them in and screw up the average colelctor. __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

12-16-2002, 01:27 PM	#29
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,150 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	The "intensity" of the SS runes stamp is well illustrated by this enlarged photo that is also shown in a negative image (bottom photo)... It is pretty obvious that the SS runes were not applied at the same time as the other stamps on the gun because of the difference in the intensity of the stamper's strike... __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

12-10-2002, 10:56 PM	#22
Leon DeSpain User Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Plano, Texas Posts: 124 Thanks: 0 Thanked 5 Times in 2 Posts	To all; Whether the SS marking in question is real or not, I think we are experiencing the real phenomenon of the Internet. For the first time, collectors from all over the world can compare notes. So, a marking that was seen one time by a collector who doesn't know what to make of it suddenly shows up in other places also. I think this is a strong postive for the collecting community and will add greatly to our experience and knowledge. I commend the web hosts of this site for their help in this endeavor. Regards, Leon

12-11-2002, 05:43 AM	#24
Dieter08 User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Germany Posts: 56 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Hi guys, here is a not so good pic of what we are talking. It's my Erfurt from 1913. The stamp seems for me to be real because the right wing of the eagle and the "1" of "Wa" is not to see because the gun has some deep rust-marks, also on the stamp! If it is a fake, how did he deep-rust the eagle???

12-12-2002, 05:51 AM	#25
Dieter08 User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Germany Posts: 56 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Here is a better pic of the SS-stamp. Your opinions please! <img src="graemlins/wave.gif" border="0" alt="[byebye]" />

12-12-2002, 02:58 PM	#26
Leon DeSpain User Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Plano, Texas Posts: 124 Thanks: 0 Thanked 5 Times in 2 Posts	Hi Dieter, Your picture certainly lends credibility to the stamp. There will be those who ask "When was the stamp actually placed there?" and also say "That rust could have formed post-war". Both arguments are reasonable. I now have more confidence that the stamp is original but there are still doubts. Until the stamp shows up more and in more cases where it is most likely not a post-war enhancement, I don't think we can be absolutely sure and may never be. A big plus would be to have the vet who captured it declare that the gun was not altered post-war especially if no premium was placed on the stamp. Regards, Leon

12-13-2002, 04:17 AM	#27
Dieter08 User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Germany Posts: 56 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Maybe the stamp is post-war, but then it has to be done before 1960 because the last owner owned it for over 40 years, and he told me, that this stamp wasn't made in that time. Is it possible, that in the 50's someone owned such a stamp? Why should he stamp a gun, which had no value in that time? Many better ones were available. Maybe it is a fake, but for me not real believeable.

12-16-2002, 01:06 PM	#28
Dieter08 User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Germany Posts: 56 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Hi Leon and others. The rust is one field from the old stamps to the Wa1. The runes are clear.

12-16-2002, 02:23 PM	#30
Leon DeSpain User Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Plano, Texas Posts: 124 Thanks: 0 Thanked 5 Times in 2 Posts	Hi Dieter, I saw the stamping difference that you are talking about in the original photo. My take on it was that when it was stamped the die wasn't being held perpendicular but instead angled back and to the left which would account for the runes being struck deeply and the right wing of the eagle being struck so light that what appears to be a small amount of corrosion virutally eliminated the impression of the right wing. Stamps being struck at an angle is somewhat common. I have seen it numerous times. I still certainly question the stamp but it makes for some interesting conversation and conjecture. I wish there were more examples or someone had something concrete concerning the stamp either one way or the other. Regards, Leon

12-16-2002, 10:51 PM	#31
Leon DeSpain User Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Plano, Texas Posts: 124 Thanks: 0 Thanked 5 Times in 2 Posts	Sorry John, Shame on me. I was in such a hurry that, when I saw the pictures, I assumed that Dieter had posted them. BTW, I forwarded the picture of the Luger stamp to a long time collector/researcher that specialized in Third Reich (40 years). His opinion confirmed what I thought I was seeing about the die being struck at an angle. All personal opinion, of source. He has mixed emotions about the authenticity of the stamp. Some of the info fits for him, some does not. He is primarily in doubt about the style of the eagle. He said that the SS use of the Steyr Solothurn was historically accurate since they could get nothing like that thru military channels and they used that gun thoughout the war so having a SS stamp on that gun would not surprise him. If I get more details or documentation from him, I will post them. Regards, Leon

12-20-2002, 02:45 AM	#32
Karl F. Kleber New User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Worms, Germany Posts: 2 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	In my life I have handled several 10.000 Luger pistols and have never seen this stamp. Also on this is possible as the SS stole and robbed all guns they could lay their hands on in their desparate need for equipment for their troops. In contrary to the believe that the SS was well equipped, they got only what the Army, Airforce and Navy left over for them. If there had been any guns left in a place, the SS confiscated it. Therefore - consider it that I might be real, just confiscated, marked and issued. Karl

12-20-2002, 04:14 AM	#33
Dieter08 User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Germany Posts: 56 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Hello Karl, welcome to the forum, send me a mail to: Dieter08@web.de

12-20-2002, 08:22 AM	#34
hipwr223 User Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Pa Posts: 22 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I am no expert on lugers, but if the SS procured the pistol after manufacture, it would stand to reason that the stamp would not have been added at the same time as the original proofs. I would like to use the US procurment of shotguns as an example. In WW2 the US bought lots of shotguns right from commercial production(i.e. Remington M11, Ithaca M37, etc..) They also put martial markings on them when they purchased them. Obviously the stamps the Govt put on were not of the same variety, consistency, or depth as the stamps applied by the manufacturer. And the US property markings may have been added months or a year after the gun was actually produced. Is that luger a fake??? Maybe. Maybe someone was honing their skills at deception and used a rough peice like that Erfurt to test the stamp on before applying it to a more desireable pistol??? I guess without any supporting evidence its all just conjecture. interesting to discuss though. John Sylvester

12-20-2002, 09:35 PM	#35
Leon DeSpain User Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Plano, Texas Posts: 124 Thanks: 0 Thanked 5 Times in 2 Posts	Hi John, I don't think there is any doubt that the stamp would have been added after manufacture. The SS didn't exist in 1913. My feeling is that, if the stamp is real, it is either a property stamp or a rework stamp added by a SS arsenal. That would have likely been in the late '30's but the early '40's would not be out of the question. The stamp is suspect but I am keeping an open mind as I don't think anyone really knows for sure, one way or the other. Regards, Leon

12-20-2002, 10:57 PM	#36
Navy RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dc 'burbs in Virginia Posts: 2,482 Thanks: 0 Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts	Gentlemen, I would opine that if one has to go to the lengths that these discussions are reaching to rationalize legitimacy, then something is terribly wrong. Occam's Razor is a good principle in both philosophy and collecting:the shortest logical answer is most likely the correct answer. If you have to resort to "coulda, maybe dida and possibly hadda" then I would suggest you are barking up the wrong tree. The markings on the takedown tool and the pistol, are clearly bogus, IMHO. One would have to really strain credulity to believe otherwise. Tom A.

12-22-2002, 05:52 PM	#37
Leon DeSpain User Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Plano, Texas Posts: 124 Thanks: 0 Thanked 5 Times in 2 Posts	To Tom A, I do not perceive that anyone is trying to rationalize legitimacy with this thread. What I believe we are looking for is simply the truth which has not been found to this point, IMHO. Please, sir, indulge those of us who do not see things as clearly as you. Thank you, Leon

12-22-2002, 06:21 PM	#38
hipwr223 User Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Pa Posts: 22 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Leon, I worded some of my post poorly. I am aware that this pistol was made well in advance of the SS. I was simply pointing out that some things may never be verifiable but real none the less. Like I said, when the Gov't...any Gov't agency has to procure material through unconventional means, it stands to reason that lots of variables will exisit. Markings and acceptance stamps included. I am not ready to jump too quickly to assumptions of authenticity as quick decisions can be short sighted. John

12-22-2002, 09:28 PM	#39
JohnF User Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: UK Posts: 167 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	There comes a point in these discussions where only opinion remains. I do not have a picture of an SS armourer stamping these items - equally no-one has evidence of this marking being a known fak stamp. The key things here are: 1) This is a simple debate, no-one is trying to sell anything at a premium based on these markings. 2) The fact that we can have this debate demonstrates the power of the internet to disseminate information. One posting of this stamp brought out two more examples. Let's see what other information is out there in lofts and basements. Best wishes to all for Christmas and the New Year, Cheers, John

12-22-2002, 10:29 PM	#40
MauserLugers User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Philipsburg, Montana 59858 Posts: 250 Thanks: 0 Thanked 8 Times in 1 Post	Hi, More than likely the SS marks on the Luger and the takedown tool are bogus. There have been dies available for 50 years in Germany and the United States and are for sale currently. You can currently "order" any kind of a tool you desire from a certain "dealer", and this has been going on for years. This indicates that "craftsmen" have been "enhancing" variations for a long time. When a premium price can be obtained over a normal piece, you see the dies come out and pieces start showing up. An example of this is the Mauser Military Police variations where there are more fabricated pieces with a sear safety now than real examples. The same is true with the ss runes marked Lugers. Without absolute positive documentation of some kind, you more than likely have an enhanced variation. Another example is the reported 1945 Krieghoff examples where it was positively observed that a guy in the mid-east in the 50's or early 60's was building these in his shop. The dies were observed, the frames, and other parts. This was in the 50's, so don't fool yourself that this hasn't been going on for a long, long time! Stoegers are another example where there are more fabricated examples than real examples. It is interesting that these examples are just now showing up and that the major collectors that have search all over the world, have contacts all over the world, have not been able to find examples until just recently, and they have had access to major collections for the last 50 years. Just something to think about.