Advice on Luger purchase requested

[wterrell]

Damn, John S., don't embarrass me. I was hoping that was forgotten. I truly admire these men who have the knowledge. They can call me stupid, ignorant, foolish, village idiot-----it does not matter, as long as they give away in a few sentences what took them many years and piles of money to learn.
I will take all the short-cuts that come along. I will not let my pride interfere with my accumulation of knowledge.
This is the real world and the name of the game is to win.

[John D.]

[quote]Originally posted by MauserLugers:
<strong>....I know do not feel or act higher or better than anyone. They are willing to share information, but instead of welcoming them and accepting them, they are questioned....</strong><hr></blockquote>

Now - I want to respond to your post.....

I believe you are wrong.

I presume I am a collector. I have a collection worth tens of thousands of dollars. Maybe more. I DO share my information - and have spent tens of thousands of dollars accumulating that information.

FOR THAT - I STILL do not feel the need to belittle ANYONE on their initial quest for information - whether they are a newcomer, or are NOT a collector. If they are passionate about the hobby - then they have a right to know.

IMNSHO - Who frigging cares if a person is an "expert"? If they can't share their knowledge without belittling the person making the request - they are less a gentleman, then a collector. Are they different then a new collector who may be them, given their resources? No. Should they be held "above" the rest of us? No. If they can't share their knowledge without belittling the new-comer, are they "above" us? No. In fact - my view is that this is a hobby where we all learn from each other. When that is a perverse avocation, rather then intellectual exchanges - then we all lose. Not what it is - but rather, what the knowledge might become. Which is the format of this forum.

To those that don't understand that facet of collecting - then I expect they will, indeed - go away - as there is no challenge to learn. Rather, they will believe they are the teachers, rather then the students - and have nothing more to learn. That ideogram is directly contrary to what this Forum is all about.

John D.

[Herb]

Mauserlugers, I disagree with your post about 50 year old references. I feel these books are invaluable as the writers actually held the Lugers in their hands, examined them and reported their findings. This was in the days before 'boosting' and fakery was the norm. I see posts that Costanzo is wrong because someone else said so, or has (re) written a book based upon the knowledge of those before them, this applies to some of the other writers too. Just where is the more current information coming from? I suppose that thousands of Lugers have become available in the last few years that prove the information that came before is inaccurate, and that the authors have actually held the items in their hands and have the expertise to decide if they are original or not. Whenever I see this I am suspect as to the verifiable source of this 'new' information. If I feel that it is significant, I also feel it is my right to request the source of this information, rather than to take it at face value just because someone has published a book, or books, on the subject. Anyone can write a book given enough resources, but is the source of those resources accurate? I'll go with the 'oldie but goodies' anytime, mainly because they were written before fakes were the norm. I feel that it has been proven more than once on this forum that even forensic testing is needed to determine if an item is faked or not, not many of us are willing to go to that extent to verifiy what is, or is not, original, I sure am not, but some are all too willing to accept, without question, the writings of the more recent authors on the subject of Lugers without giving any thought to the credence of their writings. PROVE to me why Harry Jones, Kenyon, Datig, Costanzo, Reese, Walters and others are wrong! Until then, I will trust to the older examiners/authors who reported what they found at the time they found it. I had intended to avoid involvement in this thread but felt that your comment deserved a opposing view. If these 'newly' found experts can't stand the heat, perhaps they sould stay out of the kitchen. If I wrote a book, I would welcome comments of any nature, it would assist me in developing information based upon these comments. I regret the loss of some of these experts based upon their lack of tolerance of being questioned, but that is their choice, not mine.

[MauserLugers]

Hi John, and John,
First, you know I respect you two and your opinions and although we have disagreed before and probably will in the future, we can all state our opinions without over reacting. I feel we all agree that we should have manners and be respectful to all, whether here on the forum or out in everyday life. That said, this lumping all "experts" as being power hungry and looking for attention and having huge ego's isn't correct, and should not be tolerated here either, just the same as being dis-respectful should not be tolerated. There are bad apples in every bushel, but that doesn't make the whole bushel bad. Perhaps Roadkill had some merit to his comments, but not all collectors are as he depicts them, and most are more than willing to share. They know that this is a rather dying breed and without new blood and new torch barers, the crucial knowledge to keep things on the up and up is going to be lost in a very short time!

[Pete Ebbink]

Let's not forget how this thread started and by whom. Alex, a newcomer to the Forum...

Alex; if you are still here and reading, just realize we are just a big disfunctional family and somehow we seem to get through that dreaded Christmas Day dinner...swear we will never do it again..but then always look forward to next year !

Regards,

Pete.. <img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" />

[MauserLugers]

Hi Herb,
The old books are a great reference and all should read them, but you should know that you should not believe everything in them. First, they were written when information was hard to gather, when you actually had to run across the country to look at something, and then you only collected informatin from the few fellow collectors that you knew. Most was by hearsay or over the phone. Sources like Auto Mag have proven lots of information printed in the older books to be wrong. This is not putting the authors or anyone down, as it was thought at that time to be correct. Since then, thousands of imports have come into this country, and through the internet one can collect serial numbers and record information from all over the world. If you want to believe that rear connecting pins can be un-numbered on Mauser WWII Lugers, then so be it. If you want to believe that black plastic magazines and grips are correct on 1939 Lugers, then so be it. If you want to believe that the inside side plate number doesn't mean a thing, then so be it. All the books have mistakes in them whether they were printed 50 yrs ago or 5 yrs ago. Do you actually think the author looked at all the Lugers he writes about in person? It is said that the 1904 in Kenyon's book is not correct. It is said that there are no Japanese marked Lugers. Lugers are labeled wrong all the time -- for instance the 1920 and 1923 commercials. They were actually produced just the opposite of how they are labeled. Don't get me wrong, as I have all the older books and references and I enjoy them and there is a lot of information in them, but not all of it is correct. For instance, in Kenyons book he doesn't list a 1938 Eagle K police Banner. Does that mean there is not such a variation? All references are good and all have good information.

[Pete Ebbink]

Hello Bill,

I agree with your discussion about the new and older books, completely !

I do enjoy reading the older books just to gain the historical appreciation of luger collection from the perspective of 30-50 years ago...

I think one of the most fascination reads for me was in Fred Datig's book, when he relays the story about going to Germany and actually visiting with Georg Luger Jr. at his home...that story is priceless.

I also bought a newer book, The Navy Luger; expecting it to be more of a Navy luger ID tool and a listing of sighted luger database (i.e. similar to Jan Still's books...). To my surprise (and initial disappointment), this Navy Luger book had none of this info. but was filled with the fabric of the history of the Germany Imperial Navy...what a wonderful surprise...

Regards,

Pete...

[hermit]

Wow!! I just dropped in -- it's 4am here. I doubt that Alex or LA Reporter and myself had any intention of stirring up such a debate over this. When I made my first request for information here, I was very politely welcomed to the forum by John S. and others. It was a pleasure to ask questions and get answers in a respectful and informative way. I soon realised that posts by Either neophites or even experienced people that could not be answered recieved no replies. Sooner or later the ones that were not answered were either rephrased or additional info on the topic was given and they were answered promptly. A hobby needs to constantly grow and attract new people or sooner or later it will die from lack of interest. I doubt anyone here wants to see another banned. My main point when I first answered this thread was to show that a wrong word such as "ignorant or fool" in a new conversation with someone can raise the new person's hackles. I still think nothing bad was intended, just said too strongly to start with. This all could have been avoided just by stating that the individual has no idea (ignorant) of what he has so make sure that you do before you purchase it. Every new luger owner is one more luger that someone learns about, even if it was redone or a true rarity. Sorry if I raised everyones temper with any of my posts. Again, this is a great site and there are very few negative experiences and hope it will stay that way. God Bless.

[ESU]

Some of the people here have to lighten up a little. Poor old Alex comes here to the experts to ask what he thought was a simple question . He gets some real good advice from most and one sarcastic/biting comment from one seemingly bitter individual . I have asked many questions myself here as I am new to Lugers and 99% have recieved honest answers . Alex I too have felt the sting of Garfields comments. Sorry Garfield we cant all be experts like you. Not a very good way to welcome a potential new luger collector into the fold . He may very well be saving a Luger from the scrap heap or rotting away in some attic some where. Alex, I for one look forward to seeing your new acquisition . I also have found many gentlemen here , John, Mauserlugers, Tom Heller etc .Garfield lighten up, your expertise would better serve all of us , including yourself , if you werent so grumpy .
Remember 9-11, Lt. Cory Cuneo NYPD
Emergency Service Unit (ESU)

[Pete Ebbink]

Hello Cory,

Thanks for your excellent post.

You are right; 9/11 and your police work keeping our country safe are the important things in life.

We might all be taking this luger hobby a bit too seriously.

Glad to hear from you on the Forum !!!

Regards,

Pete... <img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" />

[MauserLugers]

Hi,
I know I shouldn't say anymore about this but, ... poor old Alex ... as you label him, did not exactly come clean with all the information. He did not tell us who had this Luger or much about it at all and asked if it is a good deal for $175, which was way too cheap for a nice Luger. This raised some questions as to whether Alex was being taken. If Alex had stated in the beginning that this pistol belonged to a close friend of his fathers, and did not leave you wondering just who had it, the reply would have been totally different. I felt the original question was un-answerable and by not sharing all the information he had, it led to a lot of speculation which all pointed in the direction of Alex being cheated or taken. I'm not going to defend Garfied's actions, as he can defend himself, but I do feel this was kind of a set up.

[Luke]

Garfield's comments, which sometimes may seem a bit abrasive, are usually straight, to-the-point, and technically and historically accurate.

From the viewpoint of this relative newcomer that's all that counts.

Just my 2 cents.
Luke

[Herb]

Mauserlugers and others. It was very late when I wrote my response about the references. My intent, apparently not obvious, was not to discard the more recent writers comments in favor of the older references, but to point out that if new information does become available from whatever source, if the author does not reveal this source, but mearly stated that Jones, etc is wrong, I feel he has left himself open to questions of what his authoritive sources are. I will not just take his word for it, and feel justified if I question him/her on it. If the author feels insulted by this and refuses to divulge his information than I feel I have the right to refuse to accept it, and will continue to accept the older information as correct until actually proven wrong.

[Johnny Peppers]

Herb,
As new information becomes available, it is not always as simple as stumbling upon the information in the "Book of Luger" and we find everything is laid out in textbook form. Much of the information comes from years of gathering data, and then applying common sense to what you have gathered. MauserLugers commented on the 1920 and 1923 Commercials, and that new data indicates that the old data was flawed in applying the 1923 date. After data was gathered on the five digit so called 1923 Commercials, it became apparent that DWM merely started production and serial numbers on the commercial models following WWI right where they left off in 1914. When the serial numbers reached the 90,000 range, DWM apparently made the decision not to use a six digit serial number. At this time DWM apparently made the decision to use the military style of serial numbering using a number with a letter suffix on their commercial pistols. Logically, they started with the letter suffix i which is the 9th letter of the alphabet. Had DWM started in the very beginning of production with the Model 1900 and numbered all the commercials in the military style, when they started with the 100 thousandth commercial Luger, it would have been in the i letter suffix block. There are no undated commercial Lugers with any letter suffix before the letter suffix i.
As far as I know, the term 1923 Commercial first shows up in Fred Datig's book and he offers no supporting data as to where it came from. It has always been accepted, as no research had previously been offered to explain that the model was actually a continuation of the 1914 Commercial and was produced before 1923.
If you look on page 139 of "Luger Variations" you will find the information that the Erfurt LP08 was made from 1914 thru 1918. Through research we now feel fairly comfortable with the knowledge that there were no Erfurt LP08's manufactured after 1914. I don't know that any hard evidence has been offered to prove that the data in "Luger Variations" is wrong and that none were made, but just the simple fact that none have shown up and it is accepted by the Luger collecting fraternity that none were made after 1914.

[Herb]

Johnny, There is information that Erfurts did exist in 1918 as evidenced by the double dated 1918/1920 examples. The confusion I believe comes from the fact that so many Lugers were assembled by Erfurt using DWM parts and vice-versa that a true Luger actually totally manufactured by either is questionable at best during this time frame due to the Great War demands. As is documented, DWM did what ever they damn well pleased as far as numbering was concerned, continuing consecutive numbering until the end of the contract rather than beginning again at the end of each year as did Erfurt. All of this is confusing when trying to establish an exact, or close, date of manufacture using dates and numbers. The Kentucky Whisky is kicking in about now, I had best leave it as is.

[Johnny Peppers]

Herb,
Maybe I need a drink to understand your reply. There is no question that there are 1918 Erfurt P08's, just no 1918 Erfurt LP08's. The 1920 Reichswehr property mark would have no bearing on this data at all.
Where does the "fact" come from that so many Lugers were assmbled by Erfurt using DWM parts and vice-versa. Please reveal your source.
I have no knowledge of DWM numbering Imperial contract pistols other than in the required manner. As to commercial pistols, they numbered them in the manner they considered the easiest to keep records.
I don't know if you have Jan Still's Imperial Lugers, but according to his information on military contract Lugers, beginning in 1912 DWM started over each year at the beginning of the alphabet. If you have information to the contrary which states that DWM did not in fact do this, would you reveal your source?

[ESU]

I know I shouldn't say anymore about this but, ... poor old Alex ... as you label him, did not exactly come clean with all the information. He did not tell us who had this Luger or much about it

Geez we getting kind of paranoid here ? Do we really think Alex left out who had this gun on purpose ? For what possible reason ? Because maybe one of us would go out and get it 1st ? We dont know who he is , where he lives or who had the Luger. I read the post and saw nothing untoward about it. He was asking a general question like is a luger worth $175 bux. Seemed obvious to me he knew nothing about them but was anxious to learn. Very simply he could be asked more info such as make,model,condition, matching #, who has it before an answer is given . Thats what these forums should be about, an exchange of information. No reason to snottily tell the guy to go buy a book or something like that . Like my grandma used to say , "if you aint got nuthin nice to say dont say nuthin", good very easily scare off a potential hobby mate, ESU .

[Stu]

I agree with Cory. An answer along the lines of "IF it's an actual Luger and IF it's all in one piece and IF it appears to function it's probably a good buy. Can you tell us more about it ?", is quite appropriate.

I'd be surprised many of us would turn down a complete Luger cannon and frame in reasonable condition for $175 ?

[MauserLugers]

Hi Cory, Stu,
I agree that there is no need to give replies of a snotty nature, and I agree that we have to help all the new comers in this hobby. That said, I think you guys are all to trusting and optimistic that everyone is on the honest side and no one is trying to take, cheat, or take advantage of you. There are a lot of bad guns floating around and a lot of just plain crooks in the gun business whose only goal is to make a fast buck. The only thing about Alex's post that influenced most to say buy, was the price of $175. Still, in my opinion, the information given originally did not warrent a "buy it" response as it sounded like Alex could have been taken. What if the price had been $600? Would most still have said "buy it". Again, some of us have been taken more than once and we are hesitant of these super deals and without more information given to give an answer, all we can do is speculate. Which if I'm going to speculate I would rather tell a guy to walk away from something that just doesn't sound right, like an $175 Luger. Better to be happy with a purchase than always dissappointed with it, regardless of the price. Good collecting!

[Jan C Still]

John D.
"Oh - has Jan been telling folks I banned him, again? For the record - he isn't banned. He chooses not to post."

This is an erroneous statement: I have not been telling anyone that I have been banned. I didn't post because I have been on a trip.
Jan