Japanese Luger Story in AutoMag...

[Vlim]

Hi,

If I wanted to fake a Japanese luger and did not understand the language, I would copy the characters from another Japanese handgun from the same timeframe...

[Ron Wood]

According to a knowledgeable friend, the barrel inscription reads "Type 14"! If this is true, it does cast a bit of doubt about the authenticity of these Lugers.

[Sgt Art]

Weren't the so-called death's head Lugers discredited as fakes perpetrated by an importer who took reworks etc and stamped a skull and cross bones to make people think they were SS pistols?

[Ron Wood]

Sgt Art,
There are some genuine death's head Lugers in existence. There is no definitive answer regarding when they were created and/or to which units they belonged. There is absolutely no connection between the SS and the death head Lugers. The death head Lugers pre-date the SS by many years.

[Sgt Art]

Yeah, seems I heard that they felt like they came from the Death's Head Hussars or some such from WWI. But, seems I saw some that had SS runes as well. Perhaps I'm mistaken.

[Big Norm]

Sgt Art,
in Jan Stills 'Imperial Luger' book pg 155-156, he suggests that "the Deaths Head (totenkopf) symbol was adopted as the symbol of the flame throwers during WW1. These were also painted on tanks of that era. The 'Totenkoph' was also put on some Lugers of the 1917-1918 period. Detailed documentation has not been found.".

The single, little 'S' curl on the the top of the deaths head also existed on a 1918 Luger picture featured in the same book (pg 153). Long before the 'SS' was invented by Hitler.

My opinon is that the 'totenkopf' would be an individual small unit thing and nothing official. Later, counterfeiters thought that this looked cool and applied it to other Lugers to make more money selling their toys. I also think that this is the case of the "Mum" Lugers. But that is just my humble opinion. I would never go out of my way to buy either a "Totenkoph" or a "Mum" Luger. There are just too many good, documented Lugers out there and too little money to buy them all.
Big Norm

[Sgt Art]

Was/is there any explanation of the little "S" over the death's head? It's an interesting explanation, but I have to wonder. I know unit armorers had the ability to apply unit markings to the grip strap area during WWI, we've all seen those. Unit markings are numbers and letters that appear to have been stamped on by hand with the grip supported by an insert to keep it from collapsing. But, the Death's Dead looks like it was applied by a die and press of some sort. Wouldn't that require a sizeable press? That doesn't sound like the type of equipment you would normally find at say the "field" level. Just a thought. I think one thing to consider is, what would the value of the specimens bearing mums and death's heads be without those little additions?

[JohnF]

Out of curiousity I sent the barrel inscription to a Japanese colleague and he couldn't read it. Maybe it was copied from another gun and the copier got some of the characters wrong?

[John Sabato]

An update on the inscription that was shown from two alleged "Japanese" Luger barrels...

I printed out the photo showing the two sets of symbols and presented it to two young Japanese born and raised acquaintences without explanation and requested if they could read the inscription that was found on two similar antiques... independently, they each came to the conclusion that the first three symbols are not of Japanese origin... and just as independently, they each said that the remaining 5 symbols indicated a "type of the 14th year"

(Photo re-displayed here for convenience)



Can anyone document the character type of the first three symbols with any known reference?

Only after their partial translation of the inscription did I educate my acquaintences on the origin of the photos... neither of these gentlemen are gun enthusiasts... and once they had each offered their opinion to me privately, they consulted with each other and confirmed their translation to the best of their ability. They attributed the difference in the next to the last symbol (both agreed it was the same symbol) to the depth of the stamping on a curved surface...

Comments and opinions are welcome.

I find this topic VERY interesting.

[Edward Tinker]

John, either that picture is the one I posted, or one like it, and the symbols are incorrect. In talking to Jan, (one photo was from his book, the other from Datig I think?), he said essentially the same thing, when he asked a Japanese reader, they said that the symbols were not tight, Jan said he didn't go much further with it, as he thought the gun he observed wouldn't have incorrect markings on it, if real.

That is from memory, so I could be convoluting my thinking,

Ed

[John Sabato]

Ed,

You must have holiday lag... <img border="0" alt="[hiha]" title="" src="graemlins/roflmao.gif" />

the photo was originally posted by you...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">(Photo re-displayed here for convenience) </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">All I am trying to do is track down those first 3 erroneous symbols... the last five have been corroborated by several sources now as "type of the 14th year"

[Ron Wood]

Sgt Art,

One of the units that has been identified as a possibility for the Death Head Luger is the "Flammenwerfer" or flamethrower units that had the Death Head as part of their official or unofficial insignia. It has been postulated that the lazy "S" is a stylized representation of the pattern of the flame from a flamethrower as it is swept across a target.

[Jim Keenan]

I have examined one "Japanese" Luger and it was a fake. The marking was poorly engraved and off center as well. I am certainly not going to get into the "who faked photos" contrversy, but I have seen nothing to indicate that Mauser made Lugers on a Japanese contract, or that the Japanese ever put the "mum" on captured or purchased weapons. (The type I rifles have no "mum".)

Engraving of chamber markings does not itself indicate a fake. The factory commonly did so when markings were needed for a small lot of guns and it was cheaper and quicker to engrave the guns than to make up a roll stamp. But engraved markings should still be looked on with some skepticism, especially where the marking duplicates uncommon stamped markings (e.g. "M2" markings).

Japanese officers could and did buy their own pistols, and some certainly could have owned Lugers, but these would have been commercial Lugers, not P.08's, nor would they have had the "mum" which indicated property made for the Emperor.

Tales of Japanese Lugers from WWII can almost always be discounted, not because anyone was lying, but because the Type 14 pistols as well as the Nambu pistols as a group, were almost universally called "Jap Lugers", even in army documents. I was once shown a "Jap Baby Luger" by a veteran who captured it on Okinawa. It was a Baby Nambu; still a very nice piece, but certainly not a Luger, baby or otherwise.

Jim

[Doubs]

The "Auto Mag" is a fine publication with much excellent information, especially for those interested in Lugers. It is also a product of the members with articles submitted by them and the quality of the information is subject to the limitations of the individuals. I was a member of NAPCA for several years and in that time I wrote a letter detailing information about a US&S 1911A1 that came into my possession in 99.9% condition. The pistol was examined in detail by Edward Banks - now deceased - and deemed original in every way. Ed contacted a very senior official of US&S and arranged the sale of the pistol to him.

I spoke with the gentleman several times by telephone and he had been employed at that time for many years (more than 30, IIRC) with US&S and had complete access to all of their records. According to his account, the ONLY surviving records of US&S 191A1 war-time production were ones that he and a friend had managed to pull from a dumpster when they were tossed out early in his employment. The records they saved are few and don't begin to tell the full story. The information he himself gathered over the years came from first hand accounts of employees who were there during the war and had knowledge of daily operations. At the time I spoke with him, he also owned a "lunch box" US&S pistol that was returned to the company by police who confiscated it from a former worker years after the worker had retired.

Anyway, without going into great detail about the gentleman with whom I'd spoken, I observed in my letter that a great deal of information about US&S production had been lost. The month following the appearance of my letter in "Auto Mag", there was a response from a fellow who thoroughly trashed my letter and made the statement that the reason he KNEW he was correct was because unlike war-ravaged Germany and Japan, we hadn't been bombed and the full records of US&S production during the war were still very much intact.

My first impulse was to ask for the exact location of those records but after beginning a couple of replies that sounded too "testy" I just let it go.

Just as this fine forum is the sum of the contributions of the members, so is "Auto Mag" and there will be differences of opinion. It's how those differences are expressed that makes the debate either educational and enjoyable or just a p!$$!n' contest.

[Edward Tinker]

Very true !!

And well said, do you still have this 1911A1? Sounds very sweet, would like to see pictures of it?



Ed

[John Sabato]

I will just deduct it from your annual overseas lugerforum dues Tac! That puts you back down to zero so this years membership is free (just like my salary as an Admin)

Seriously though, Can your local Japanese speakers identify the type and character of the first three symbols... because my locals told me that the first three symbols were not of the same type as the last five...which I think I remember they said were "kangi" (spelling is a guess).

-John

[Ron Wood]

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva"> A reply on the Banzai board says it means: "Doitsu [German] 14th Year Type" </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Tac's information confirms the translation found by Ed Tinker. Now, why is it that some can translate the characters and others can't? Is there more than one variant of Japanese characters and why would there be a mixture of two styles in the same inscription?

[Doubs]

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by Edward Tinker:
<strong>Very true !!

And well said, do you still have this 1911A1? Sounds very sweet, would like to see pictures of it?
Ed</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Hi Ed,

The pistol was sold to the US&S senior official. That was probably 12 or 13 years ago and at this late date I don't think there would be any harm in mentioning that his name was Robert Karrow. He retired shortly after I sold the pistol to him and if he's still alive is likely living in PA.

The "story" that came with the pistol may interest others so I'll repeat it for what it's worth.

Supposedly a crate of .45's was on one of the Pacific island air bases in 1945 or 1946 and when the base was closed the guns were offered to air crew members. This particular pistol was taken by a B-29 crewman. A friend of mine purchased it from the man's widow, wrapped in old newspaper and completely covered in a heavy black grease that it had apparently been dipped in while the grease was liquid. In turn, it was sold to another mutual friend. Neither of them attempted to remove the grease beyond ID'ing the maker and serial number. That's how I received it and the grease had set up to be very stiff. Removing it from the outside wasn't too much of a problem but even soaking it in mineral spirits didn't faze the grease inside. I finally put it in the oven at about 150 degrees until it was soft enough to take down and complete the cleaning.

Ed Banks, who I mentioned in my earlier post, was one of the annual "American Handgunner" Top 100 pistolsmiths with over 30 years devoted primarily to the 1911. In his opinion, the pistol was correct in every respect. Mr. Karrow also believed it to be original.

Sadly, I didn't take any pictures of it at the time and wish I had. I also wish I'd have kept it as the prices for US&S 1911's has shot through the roof. That, I'm afraid, is the lament of anyone who has collected guns for any period of time.
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="frown.gif" />

[John Sabato]

that was what my locals told me Ron... that the "type" of the first three symbols did not match the last five... peeks my curiosity too why there would be a mix of different alphabets... makes for an interesting mystery...

[Vlim]

Hi,

The real mystery is why the same engraving would be found on both a luger and a nambu...

I still believe someone just copied the nambu text on a luger barrel, since that would be the obvious thing to do if you don't speak or write japanese...