History of Police Safety Sear Installation - Page 3

jags · 04-11-2012, 05:52 AM

Don,

Thanks once again!! So as you already had figured out the old police guns were turned in when the new 1929's where issued and most of the police units recieved all new 1929's. The old guns were reworked and then were reissued to other less fortunate police forces. Makes total sense to me!

I flipped my photo around and yes the mark on the rear toggle of my luger (above) definately looks like the */D as seen on jcoe's post on that other forum (below). As I mentioned before it looks like my pistol is made up of 2 halves of two reworked and reissued police Lugers! Big mystery on how something like that could have happened!

My story will be that 2 German police officers were cleaning their guns when an urgent call came in. In their haste they accidentally grabbed the wrong barrel/receivers and reassembled their pistols. The pistols remained that way ever since!

Thanks again!!

Don M · 04-11-2012, 06:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jags

My story will be that 2 German police officers were cleaning their guns when an urgent call came in. In their haste they accidentally grabbed the wrong barrel/receivers and reassembled their pistols. The pistols remained that way ever since!

That's as good as any but I have a suspicion that the barrel & receiver are post-WWII replacements. We'll have to see more about these components.

jags · 04-11-2012, 06:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Don M

That's as good as any but I have a suspicion that the barrel & receiver are post-WWII replacements. We'll have to see more about these components.

Well the receiver is dated 1917 and seems to have the standard proofs on the right side. So that can't be post WWII. If the replacement barrel bears a PTV/E proof stamp as well as E/33 and E/45 acceptance stamps, or something similar, it would be consistant with other reworked Lugers that were recalled in 1929. We'll see when I get it in hand hopefully this weekend.

Thanks!

jags · 04-14-2012, 12:12 AM

OK, I had the pistol in hand today. Took some additional photos with my cell phone. So let's see if we can solidify things a bit.

We know that we are basically looking at two different pistols that have made up this one gun. Let's examine the frame/toggle half first.

All numbers are matching on the frame, takedown lever, side plate, safety, and toggle components. There is a notch for a magazine safety. The rear toggle looks to be a replacement as it is proofed as a 1929 rework and has a different serial number font. The front grip strap is marked with police unit marking L.T.8. This would all be consistent with a 1929 rework of a LP08 then reissued to the police. The question remained on the serial number suffix as we did not have a good photo of that. Here is a new photo:

It does look like it is the script letter "B". This would also make it consistent with being a 1929 rework. If this frame did indeed start it's life as a LP08 the "B" suffix would date it as 1916, 1917, or 1918.

Now lets look at the barrel/receiver half. The reciever is dated 1917. The barrel, receiver, and sear have matching numbers. The barrel looks to be a replacement done in 1929 as it has the correct markings. The receiver has the "rear sight flat spot" on top and also has a sear safety. All these feature make it correct for a 1929 rework police reissue. Here is a new photo:

The question is, can we gain any more insight now that we can see the right side proofs a lot better? Could someone identify those proofs and let me know what they are? Also can someone identify the proofs on the left side of the barrel?

All in all this is a very interesting Luger. If it wasn't for the two different serial numbers it would identify itself as being originally an Imperial WWI made LP08 that was issued to the police after WWI. In 1929 the pistol was recalled to be reworked into a 4 inch P08 which was then reissued to the Landjaegerei Trier Police. A few years later it had the police markings stamped on the grip frame and the sear and magazine safetys installed.

It is interesting to note that, even with two different serial numbers, each half of the gun seems to have gone through the same history! So like I said before if anyone asks here's my story.

Late February, 1945: Two German police officers of the Trier police force are cleaning their Lugers when an urgent call comes in. The Americans are advancing on the city! In their haste they accidentally grab the wrong barrel/receivers and reassemble their pistols. The officers and their weapons are captured and the pistols remained mismatched ever since!

Please feel free to comment, question, and add whatever you can. I know that this will never be a collectable, but for my own curiosity it's interesting to determine whatever history I can. I bought it as a shooter, it has a good bore, but it also has a unique history of its' own. From what I have seen so far I think I will be very happy with it!

Thanks again!

Don M · 04-14-2012, 12:24 PM

Eric, I agree completely with your analysis of the frame and its matching components. However, I don't believe the barrel/receiver has the same history. The receiver is definitely from a 1917 DWM LP08 but the barrel does not have a PTV/E proof stamp (I assume since there is no photo of it.) so it was not replaced by the Berlin Police Armory in 1929. The conversion of this pistol from an LP08 to a P08 probably took place in the early 1920s as was the case with many LP08s that were transferred to the police shortly after WWI. This may have been done by Simson but I cannot make out the stamps on the left side of the barrel. The serial number of the barrel would have been matched to the gun in the process.

I also don't think the barrel/receiver were substituted until sometime after WWII. They were both very heavily buffed before refinishing. To my knowledge, none of the police armories practiced this type of buffing. It is more representative of a later restoration attempt.

Why the barrel/receiver was replaced is a mystery but whoever did it knew enough to use a police Luger with a sear safety.

This has been a fun puzzle to (partially) solve. Thanks very much for posting it.

jags · 04-14-2012, 04:35 PM

Yes Don, After I posted these results I read further about the barrel proofs in your gunboards thread. I do believe it has the PTV/E proof on the right side of the barrel, however, it was very faint and I couldn't get a good photo of it. Also one of the proofs on the left side of the barrel does possibly look like a E/33 and another looks like an oval or football with an "S" in it. I may have a chance to see the pistol later today and I will look closer. If not, I will see it again on Tuesday.

Yes most likely the mismatch occured sometime after WWII. Also why the barrel/reciever was so heavily buffed and then reblued remains a mystery. My Trier Police story is just for fun!

I will report back after I have a chance to examine the barrel proofs more closely. I still think there is a good possibility that the barrel/reciever was a 1929 rework. Just like the frame and toggle is a 1929 rework. How the two halfs got seperated from their original pistols after WWII is a mystery along with how these two halfs got together to make this one gun.

Thanks again!

jags · 04-14-2012, 09:53 PM

I just got back from my FFL where I had a chance to really examine the barrel proofs. Because it has been buffed and reblued it is really hard to make out the proofs. I did get some more photos and, using photos of one of Don's Lugers, I have put together a comparitve analysis below.

Left Side Barrel Proofs:

Here we see a comparison. The top proof does look like it could be an E/36. The middle proof could be the top of the wings of the larger Eagle but what's below it is questionable.

Right Side Barrel Proof:

In this comparison you can definately see the faint traces of a proof there. It is in the correct location. It is possible that it is a PTV/E.

I did not get a photo of it but also stamped inside the frame but not on the lug is this same "oval N" as shown in Don's photo below. What was this proof?

I also want to note that, although the barrel/receiver has been reblued, the front of the barrel is worn to a very shinny metal. As if the tip of the barrel had been rubbing it's nose inside a holster for some time. Another mystery as if the barrel/receiver had been recently reblued as part of a restoration project, why would the barrel front be worn as if it had lived in a holster for a long time?

It's unfortunate that the barrel/reciever has been buffed and reblued which has caused the proofs to be so unreadable. I do believe that there is enough evidence to at least give some possibility that the barrel/reciever is a 1929 rework. We see that the barrel has been stamped with matching numbers to the reciever, the receiver is dated 1917 and has the "sight notch" of previously being a LP08, and it has been fitted with a safety sear. This along with the proofs that are there does point it to possibly being a 1929 rework.

I hope this additional info can help to get us a little closer to the truth.

Thanks again!

jags · 04-18-2012, 05:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Don M

The key to the barrel/receiver question will be the markings on the barrel.

I also note that the left grip has been replaced (and probably the right) since the mag safety was removed. If it was present when the mag safety was in place the left grip would be missing the upper left corner which had to be removed to allow the mag safety to function.

Don,

I've addressed the barrel/receiver question in the above post. Any comments would be appreciated.

Also I was at my FFL again yesterday and removed the grips. They have matching serial numbers (05) to the frame and do look original. The left grip does have a notch in the upper left corner where the magazine safety would have been. It was nicely done though without taking a big chunk out of the grip.

It's too bad that the barrel/receiver doesn't match the rest of the gun. but I still think it's a great find!

Thanks again.

Don M · 04-18-2012, 05:27 PM

Eric, the barrel markings look more like those on wartime Erfurts than stamps from 1929 PTV LP08/P08 conversions. This would be consistent with early postwar conversions using whatever was at hand.

Glad to hear that the grips are original to the frame, etc.

I agree it is a great find and it has added to my database of converted Landjägerei LP08s.

jags · 04-18-2012, 06:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Don M

Eric, the barrel markings look more like those on wartime Erfurts than stamps from 1929 PTV LP08/P08 conversions. This would be consistent with early postwar conversions using whatever was at hand.

So you're saying that there were barrel replacements being done during the 20's before the big 1929 recall? Who would have done these conversions? Were they done by local armories or would they have been sent back to Berlin?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Don M

Glad to hear that the grips are original to the frame, etc.

Yes it's great that majority of this pistol is all from the same gun. Not just a bunch of parts thrown together. It would be interesting to know how and why this Luger ended up with the mismatched barrel/receiver. But I guess it shall remain a mystery.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Don M

I agree it is a great find and it has added to my database of converted Landjägerei LP08s.

Thanks for adding it to your database and making it a part of history!!

Now I'm looking forward to getting her in hand after a 25 day waiting period! I do plan to put a few rounds through her every so often but most of the time she will be resting as part of my Indiana Jones collection!

Thanks again for all your help and insight.

Don M · 04-19-2012, 04:50 PM

One final thought about the barrel/receiver. After a bit of research, it seems more likely that these both were originally from a 1917 Erfurt P08. Unlike DWM, Erfurt manufactured both P08s and LP08s with the notch on the front of the receiver, so the notch on this one does not necessarily mean this receiver was originally from an LP08. Also, acceptance stamps on the right side of the receiver appear to be crown over F, X, P. Even if this is not correct, they certainly are not crown over T, S, S as found on 1917 and 1918 DWMs (http://luger.gunboards.com/showthrea...EPTANCE-STAMPS). This scenario seems much more likely than postulating that an Erfurt barrel was mated to a DWM receiver in the early 1920s.

Whoever replaced the barrel and receiver of this pistol apparently took this assembly from a heavily buffed and refinished 1917 Erfurt P08 that had seen police service.

I think we have wrung all the history out of this pistol that we are going to!

jags · 04-19-2012, 04:59 PM

Don,

I agree. We have got as much as we can out of her and I really appreciate all your help. The receiver, as you point out, must be a 1917 Erfurt as the proofs are definately not the DWM "TSS". The barrel then most likely is the original to the receiver. Again great detective work on your part. Now the best thing will be to get her home and enjoy her!

Thanks again for all your help. My Indiana Jones handgun collection is almost complete as I also picked up a Mauser C96 "red 9" and a S&W 10-5 3 inch just last week. All I need now to complete the collection is a Webley MK III .38 3 inch nickle. If anyone out there has one for sale please let me know.

Thank you all!!

04-11-2012, 05:52 AM	#41
jags User Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 32 Thanks: 4 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Don, Thanks once again!! So as you already had figured out the old police guns were turned in when the new 1929's where issued and most of the police units recieved all new 1929's. The old guns were reworked and then were reissued to other less fortunate police forces. Makes total sense to me! I flipped my photo around and yes the mark on the rear toggle of my luger (above) definately looks like the /D as seen on jcoe's post on that other forum (below). As I mentioned before it looks like my pistol is made up of 2 halves of two reworked and reissued police Lugers! Big mystery on how something like that could have happened! My story will be that 2 German police officers were cleaning their guns when an urgent call came in. In their haste they accidentally grabbed the wrong barrel/receivers and reassembled their pistols. The pistols remained that way ever since! Thanks again!! Last edited by jags; 04-11-2012 at 07:15 AM.*

04-14-2012, 12:12 AM	#44
jags User Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 32 Thanks: 4 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	OK, I had the pistol in hand today. Took some additional photos with my cell phone. So let's see if we can solidify things a bit. We know that we are basically looking at two different pistols that have made up this one gun. Let's examine the frame/toggle half first. All numbers are matching on the frame, takedown lever, side plate, safety, and toggle components. There is a notch for a magazine safety. The rear toggle looks to be a replacement as it is proofed as a 1929 rework and has a different serial number font. The front grip strap is marked with police unit marking L.T.8. This would all be consistent with a 1929 rework of a LP08 then reissued to the police. The question remained on the serial number suffix as we did not have a good photo of that. Here is a new photo: It does look like it is the script letter "B". This would also make it consistent with being a 1929 rework. If this frame did indeed start it's life as a LP08 the "B" suffix would date it as 1916, 1917, or 1918. Now lets look at the barrel/receiver half. The reciever is dated 1917. The barrel, receiver, and sear have matching numbers. The barrel looks to be a replacement done in 1929 as it has the correct markings. The receiver has the "rear sight flat spot" on top and also has a sear safety. All these feature make it correct for a 1929 rework police reissue. Here is a new photo: The question is, can we gain any more insight now that we can see the right side proofs a lot better? Could someone identify those proofs and let me know what they are? Also can someone identify the proofs on the left side of the barrel? All in all this is a very interesting Luger. If it wasn't for the two different serial numbers it would identify itself as being originally an Imperial WWI made LP08 that was issued to the police after WWI. In 1929 the pistol was recalled to be reworked into a 4 inch P08 which was then reissued to the Landjaegerei Trier Police. A few years later it had the police markings stamped on the grip frame and the sear and magazine safetys installed. It is interesting to note that, even with two different serial numbers, each half of the gun seems to have gone through the same history! So like I said before if anyone asks here's my story. Late February, 1945: Two German police officers of the Trier police force are cleaning their Lugers when an urgent call comes in. The Americans are advancing on the city! In their haste they accidentally grab the wrong barrel/receivers and reassemble their pistols. The officers and their weapons are captured and the pistols remained mismatched ever since! Please feel free to comment, question, and add whatever you can. I know that this will never be a collectable, but for my own curiosity it's interesting to determine whatever history I can. I bought it as a shooter, it has a good bore, but it also has a unique history of its' own. From what I have seen so far I think I will be very happy with it! Thanks again! Last edited by jags; 04-14-2012 at 07:21 AM.

04-14-2012, 12:24 PM	#45
Don M Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 1,429 Thanks: 67 Thanked 292 Times in 191 Posts	Eric, I agree completely with your analysis of the frame and its matching components. However, I don't believe the barrel/receiver has the same history. The receiver is definitely from a 1917 DWM LP08 but the barrel does not have a PTV/E proof stamp (I assume since there is no photo of it.) so it was not replaced by the Berlin Police Armory in 1929. The conversion of this pistol from an LP08 to a P08 probably took place in the early 1920s as was the case with many LP08s that were transferred to the police shortly after WWI. This may have been done by Simson but I cannot make out the stamps on the left side of the barrel. The serial number of the barrel would have been matched to the gun in the process. I also don't think the barrel/receiver were substituted until sometime after WWII. They were both very heavily buffed before refinishing. To my knowledge, none of the police armories practiced this type of buffing. It is more representative of a later restoration attempt. Why the barrel/receiver was replaced is a mystery but whoever did it knew enough to use a police Luger with a sear safety. This has been a fun puzzle to (partially) solve. Thanks very much for posting it. __________________ Regards, Don donmaus1@aol.com Author of History Writ in Steel: German Police Markings 1900-1936 http://www.historywritinsteel.com

04-18-2012, 05:27 PM	#49
Don M Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 1,429 Thanks: 67 Thanked 292 Times in 191 Posts	Eric, the barrel markings look more like those on wartime Erfurts than stamps from 1929 PTV LP08/P08 conversions. This would be consistent with early postwar conversions using whatever was at hand. Glad to hear that the grips are original to the frame, etc. I agree it is a great find and it has added to my database of converted Landjägerei LP08s. __________________ Regards, Don donmaus1@aol.com Author of History Writ in Steel: German Police Markings 1900-1936 http://www.historywritinsteel.com

04-19-2012, 04:50 PM	#51
Don M Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 1,429 Thanks: 67 Thanked 292 Times in 191 Posts	One final thought about the barrel/receiver. After a bit of research, it seems more likely that these both were originally from a 1917 Erfurt P08. Unlike DWM, Erfurt manufactured both P08s and LP08s with the notch on the front of the receiver, so the notch on this one does not necessarily mean this receiver was originally from an LP08. Also, acceptance stamps on the right side of the receiver appear to be crown over F, X, P. Even if this is not correct, they certainly are not crown over T, S, S as found on 1917 and 1918 DWMs (http://luger.gunboards.com/showthrea...EPTANCE-STAMPS). This scenario seems much more likely than postulating that an Erfurt barrel was mated to a DWM receiver in the early 1920s. Whoever replaced the barrel and receiver of this pistol apparently took this assembly from a heavily buffed and refinished 1917 Erfurt P08 that had seen police service. I think we have wrung all the history out of this pistol that we are going to! __________________ Regards, Don donmaus1@aol.com Author of History Writ in Steel: German Police Markings 1900-1936 http://www.historywritinsteel.com

04-14-2012, 04:35 PM	#46
jags User Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 32 Thanks: 4 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Yes Don, After I posted these results I read further about the barrel proofs in your gunboards thread. I do believe it has the PTV/E proof on the right side of the barrel, however, it was very faint and I couldn't get a good photo of it. Also one of the proofs on the left side of the barrel does possibly look like a E/33 and another looks like an oval or football with an "S" in it. I may have a chance to see the pistol later today and I will look closer. If not, I will see it again on Tuesday. Yes most likely the mismatch occured sometime after WWII. Also why the barrel/reciever was so heavily buffed and then reblued remains a mystery. My Trier Police story is just for fun! I will report back after I have a chance to examine the barrel proofs more closely. I still think there is a good possibility that the barrel/reciever was a 1929 rework. Just like the frame and toggle is a 1929 rework. How the two halfs got seperated from their original pistols after WWII is a mystery along with how these two halfs got together to make this one gun. Thanks again!

04-14-2012, 09:53 PM	#47
jags User Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 32 Thanks: 4 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	I just got back from my FFL where I had a chance to really examine the barrel proofs. Because it has been buffed and reblued it is really hard to make out the proofs. I did get some more photos and, using photos of one of Don's Lugers, I have put together a comparitve analysis below. Left Side Barrel Proofs: Here we see a comparison. The top proof does look like it could be an E/36. The middle proof could be the top of the wings of the larger Eagle but what's below it is questionable. Right Side Barrel Proof: In this comparison you can definately see the faint traces of a proof there. It is in the correct location. It is possible that it is a PTV/E. I did not get a photo of it but also stamped inside the frame but not on the lug is this same "oval N" as shown in Don's photo below. What was this proof? I also want to note that, although the barrel/receiver has been reblued, the front of the barrel is worn to a very shinny metal. As if the tip of the barrel had been rubbing it's nose inside a holster for some time. Another mystery as if the barrel/receiver had been recently reblued as part of a restoration project, why would the barrel front be worn as if it had lived in a holster for a long time? It's unfortunate that the barrel/reciever has been buffed and reblued which has caused the proofs to be so unreadable. I do believe that there is enough evidence to at least give some possibility that the barrel/reciever is a 1929 rework. We see that the barrel has been stamped with matching numbers to the reciever, the receiver is dated 1917 and has the "sight notch" of previously being a LP08, and it has been fitted with a safety sear. This along with the proofs that are there does point it to possibly being a 1929 rework. I hope this additional info can help to get us a little closer to the truth. Thanks again!

04-19-2012, 04:59 PM	#52
jags User Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 32 Thanks: 4 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Don, I agree. We have got as much as we can out of her and I really appreciate all your help. The receiver, as you point out, must be a 1917 Erfurt as the proofs are definately not the DWM "TSS". The barrel then most likely is the original to the receiver. Again great detective work on your part. Now the best thing will be to get her home and enjoy her! Thanks again for all your help. My Indiana Jones handgun collection is almost complete as I also picked up a Mauser C96 "red 9" and a S&W 10-5 3 inch just last week. All I need now to complete the collection is a Webley MK III .38 3 inch nickle. If anyone out there has one for sale please let me know. Thank you all!!