Imperial proofs - Page 4

friendlyfred · 09-02-2012, 01:40 PM

Red or Blue???

alanint · 09-02-2012, 02:23 PM

The blue lines would be the toggle bevel. Any lines past the knuckle where the red lines are pointing would indicatre that the top surface of the toggle had been machined down and the lines would represent the '"edge" where the original and new toggle surfaces met.

sheepherder · 09-02-2012, 03:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alanint

Any lines past the knuckle where the red lines are pointing would indicatre that the top surface of the toggle had been machined down...

You would think that if any 'mechanic' had machined down the toggle, he would have known that...

Norme · 09-02-2012, 03:59 PM

There's a simple way to determine, once and for all, if this toggle has been ground. Just measure the damn thing! An unground Erfurt toggle is 7.65mm (0.300") deep at it's mid-point. If Fred's toggle is about 1/4 mm less than that, it's been ground. Regards, Norm

Norme · 09-02-2012, 05:18 PM

Hi Rich, My figure of 7.65mm is based on actual measurement, using a Helios vernier caliper (a relic of my engineering school days). It represents the average, after discarding the highest and lowest, of a sample of 1 gun (I'm sorry, I only own one late war Erfurt). I do own several DWM's, and if I wasn't going out to a party tonight, there is nothing I would like better than to spend an evening field stripping them so that I could measure their toggles. Cheers, Norm

alanint · 09-02-2012, 05:39 PM

A Toggle Party?

friendlyfred · 09-02-2012, 06:04 PM

I field stripped #27 and tried to check for marks under the toggle as suggested in the article by Mittleman. My dentist's mirror didn't work so I re-assembled it. I didn't want to remove the hinge pin.
Then I started experimenting with different light sources. When using a polarized light, an extremely slight slope from the knuckle became visible. I could not detect it with the micrometer that I have, but could now see it.
Also a possible 2nd step, on the left side, became visible.

I hope, of course, that I didn't get bit with a fake...but from what I can now see, and with extra experience and help from you folks...
I am afraid I bought a fake...

Take a look at the pix and let me know your opinions please..

Does anyone know of any other examples where the toggle has been altered/manufactured in this form. Is this now detectable "slope" normal. I don't think so, but hoping I am wrong...

Thanks to all for your suggestions and input.

Have a happy Toggle Party Norm..

Fred

Patronen · 09-02-2012, 08:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Norme

Hi Doug, There is a 1917 Spandau illustrated in "Imperial Lugers" by Jan C. Still. Regards, Norm

It's Page 79 and 80 of Imperial Lugers that show the examples of Spandau's if anyones curious for quick reference.

The one in the Luger Book will not photograph well to be of any use of detail to study. Rich's scan is about as good as it would get unless you have the book. 2 interesting things about the Spandau in The Luger Book compared to the 2 in Imperial Lugers on 79 and 80 both a 1917 and a 1918, is that gun is a 1918 with no LP08 style frame cut and lacks the marking towards the back of the toggle by the rear sight.

friendlyfred · 09-02-2012, 08:37 PM

Wish I had a really precision micrometer...

Fred

Ben M. · 09-02-2012, 09:01 PM

there is also a deeper step just rearward of the 27 stamping on this toggle also. that deep of a step also indicates the flat of the toggle has been reworked/reduced,

friendlyfred · 09-02-2012, 10:57 PM

The deeper step, rearward of the #27 is noted as being larger than most...BUT NOT ALL.

I wonder at the possibility that Spandau may have ground down another toggle to put their name on it. I am going to have to get access to a precision micrometer and measure.

I cleaned out just the letter P, as gun oil and gun butter didn't seem to affect the white. Even tried using an electric toothbrush on it. No go... It finally softened enough to pick the white out with a needle......very carefully.

To my untrained eye, the letter appears stamped, not tooled.
Take a look and see what you think.

friendlyfred · 09-02-2012, 11:11 PM

Letter P only has been cleaned

MFC · 09-03-2012, 12:32 AM

I agree with Dwight... 'Spandau' was pantographed. All the lines are the same width and have rounded ends.

sheepherder · 09-03-2012, 08:02 AM

I don't think you can use the 'slant' at the front edge of the toggle flat as a determining factor; here is a pic of my Erfurt toggle showing a similar 'slant' at the front...No 'step', but a definite 'slant'...

...And, FWIW, this Erfurt toggle measures .310" at the midpoint...

(And has bevels!)

SteveM · 09-03-2012, 09:09 AM

FWIW, all of the known Spandaus were at one location in the early 90's. I saw them at the NAPCA meeting in Midland-Odessa. They were all grouped together from what I remember but I wasn't around for any discussion, if there was any at all. There may have been a write up discussion in the Automag.

sheepherder · 09-03-2012, 09:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SteveM

FWIW, all of the known Spandaus were at one location in the early 90's. I saw them at the NAPCA meeting in Midland-Odessa. They were all grouped together from what I remember but I wasn't around for any discussion, if there was any at all. There may have been a write up discussion in the Automag.

There are several Gunboards threads linked in this post referring to that 'meeting'...

http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthread.php?t=28887

It is interesting that the "Spandau" Lugers were displayed by dealers...i.e., for sale...And that the one 'Spandau' generally accepted as genuine was not there...

Anyway, for your consideration, is the one toggle I have [an Erfurt] with lettering...You can see that the letters have square ends rather than rounded ends...Rounded ends indicate a rotary engraving tool, rather than a fixed stamp or die...

(The 'slant' shows as well)

SteveM · 09-03-2012, 10:21 AM

postino,

Thanks for the links, interesting reading.

friendlyfred · 09-03-2012, 01:16 PM

Well, the jury is in.
It seems that I have been able to accomplish what Clint Eastwood suggested at the Republican Convention

A little poorer, and a little wiser, but nobody can purloin my sense of humor.

Many, many thanks to all that helped solve this issue.

My database of weapons now indicate "Spandau Probable Fake".

Final statement: May the fleas of 10,000 Camels infest the crotch of the SOB that faked this gun.

Anybody want to buy some stock in the Brooklyn Bridge?

Best regards to all,

Fred

Norme · 09-03-2012, 01:53 PM

Cheer up Fred, you are not alone. At least a dozen "Spandaus" were fabricated and some surely reside in the collections of Luger Forum members. I guess they are too embarrassed to own up to them. As President Kennedy famously said, "Victory has a thousand Fathers, defeat is an orphan". Best regards, Norm

Ben M. · 09-03-2012, 02:02 PM

there are several photos of spandau rifles on the internet in which you can see the type of crown and the stamped lettering used on rifles of the same time period. here some example. is it reasonable to think the factory would use a different style of crown on lugers, if they made them or reworked them? the style of the crown on the rifles does change over the years but the 1918 rifle has a most unique crown. one that not appear on the lugers from 1918?

http://www.google.com/imgres?hl=en&c...r:8,s:12,i:142

http://www.google.com/imgres?start=2...59&tx=62&ty=42

http://www.google.com/imgres?hl=en&c...67&tx=50&ty=91

09-02-2012, 01:40 PM	#61
friendlyfred User Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Washington State Posts: 33 Thanks: 5 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	which area are you folks referring to as the bevel? Red or Blue??? Attached Images

09-02-2012, 06:04 PM	#67
friendlyfred User Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Washington State Posts: 33 Thanks: 5 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I think I may have settled the issue I field stripped #27 and tried to check for marks under the toggle as suggested in the article by Mittleman. My dentist's mirror didn't work so I re-assembled it. I didn't want to remove the hinge pin. Then I started experimenting with different light sources. When using a polarized light, an extremely slight slope from the knuckle became visible. I could not detect it with the micrometer that I have, but could now see it. Also a possible 2nd step, on the left side, became visible. I hope, of course, that I didn't get bit with a fake...but from what I can now see, and with extra experience and help from you folks... I am afraid I bought a fake... Take a look at the pix and let me know your opinions please.. Does anyone know of any other examples where the toggle has been altered/manufactured in this form. Is this now detectable "slope" normal. I don't think so, but hoping I am wrong... Thanks to all for your suggestions and input. Have a happy Toggle Party Norm.. Fred Attached Thumbnails

09-02-2012, 10:57 PM	#71
friendlyfred User Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Washington State Posts: 33 Thanks: 5 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Removed white stuff The deeper step, rearward of the #27 is noted as being larger than most...BUT NOT ALL. I wonder at the possibility that Spandau may have ground down another toggle to put their name on it. I am going to have to get access to a precision micrometer and measure. I cleaned out just the letter P, as gun oil and gun butter didn't seem to affect the white. Even tried using an electric toothbrush on it. No go... It finally softened enough to pick the white out with a needle......very carefully. To my untrained eye, the letter appears stamped, not tooled. Take a look and see what you think. Attached Thumbnails

09-02-2012, 11:11 PM	#72
friendlyfred User Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Washington State Posts: 33 Thanks: 5 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	best shot to show the edges of the letter Letter P only has been cleaned Attached Thumbnails

09-03-2012, 12:32 AM	#73
MFC User Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Louisiana Posts: 1,237 Thanks: 183 Thanked 281 Times in 162 Posts	I agree with Dwight... 'Spandau' was pantographed. All the lines are the same width and have rounded ends. __________________ Mike C.

09-02-2012, 02:23 PM	#62
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,916 Times in 1,192 Posts	The blue lines would be the toggle bevel. Any lines past the knuckle where the red lines are pointing would indicatre that the top surface of the toggle had been machined down and the lines would represent the '"edge" where the original and new toggle surfaces met.

09-02-2012, 03:59 PM	#64
Norme Always A Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Colorado Posts: 2,414 Thanks: 224 Thanked 2,591 Times in 930 Posts	There's a simple way to determine, once and for all, if this toggle has been ground. Just measure the damn thing! An unground Erfurt toggle is 7.65mm (0.300") deep at it's mid-point. If Fred's toggle is about 1/4 mm less than that, it's been ground. Regards, Norm

09-02-2012, 05:18 PM	#65
Norme Always A Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Colorado Posts: 2,414 Thanks: 224 Thanked 2,591 Times in 930 Posts	Hi Rich, My figure of 7.65mm is based on actual measurement, using a Helios vernier caliper (a relic of my engineering school days). It represents the average, after discarding the highest and lowest, of a sample of 1 gun (I'm sorry, I only own one late war Erfurt). I do own several DWM's, and if I wasn't going out to a party tonight, there is nothing I would like better than to spend an evening field stripping them so that I could measure their toggles. Cheers, Norm

09-02-2012, 05:39 PM	#66
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,916 Times in 1,192 Posts	A Toggle Party?

09-02-2012, 08:37 PM	#69
friendlyfred User Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Washington State Posts: 33 Thanks: 5 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Wish I had a really precision micrometer... Fred

09-02-2012, 09:01 PM	#70
Ben M. User Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Retired to Naples, FL. Posts: 474 Thanks: 82 Thanked 117 Times in 79 Posts	there is also a deeper step just rearward of the 27 stamping on this toggle also. that deep of a step also indicates the flat of the toggle has been reworked/reduced,

09-03-2012, 08:02 AM	#74
sheepherder Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: ...on the 'ol Erie Canal... Posts: 8,181 Thanks: 1,398 Thanked 4,438 Times in 2,327 Posts	I don't think you can use the 'slant' at the front edge of the toggle flat as a determining factor; here is a pic of my Erfurt toggle showing a similar 'slant' at the front...No 'step', but a definite 'slant'... ...And, FWIW, this Erfurt toggle measures .310" at the midpoint... (And has bevels!) Attached Thumbnails __________________ I like my coffee the way I like my women... ...Cold and bitter... Last edited by sheepherder; 09-03-2012 at 09:02 AM.

09-03-2012, 09:09 AM	#75
SteveM User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Texas Posts: 1,016 Thanks: 94 Thanked 275 Times in 137 Posts	FWIW, all of the known Spandaus were at one location in the early 90's. I saw them at the NAPCA meeting in Midland-Odessa. They were all grouped together from what I remember but I wasn't around for any discussion, if there was any at all. There may have been a write up discussion in the Automag.

09-03-2012, 10:21 AM	#77
SteveM User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Texas Posts: 1,016 Thanks: 94 Thanked 275 Times in 137 Posts	postino, Thanks for the links, interesting reading.

09-03-2012, 01:16 PM	#78
friendlyfred User Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Washington State Posts: 33 Thanks: 5 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Well, the jury is in. It seems that I have been able to accomplish what Clint Eastwood suggested at the Republican Convention A little poorer, and a little wiser, but nobody can purloin my sense of humor. Many, many thanks to all that helped solve this issue. My database of weapons now indicate "Spandau Probable Fake". Final statement: May the fleas of 10,000 Camels infest the crotch of the SOB that faked this gun. Anybody want to buy some stock in the Brooklyn Bridge? Best regards to all, Fred

09-03-2012, 01:53 PM	#79
Norme Always A Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Colorado Posts: 2,414 Thanks: 224 Thanked 2,591 Times in 930 Posts	Cheer up Fred, you are not alone. At least a dozen "Spandaus" were fabricated and some surely reside in the collections of Luger Forum members. I guess they are too embarrassed to own up to them. As President Kennedy famously said, "Victory has a thousand Fathers, defeat is an orphan". Best regards, Norm

09-03-2012, 02:02 PM	#80
Ben M. User Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Retired to Naples, FL. Posts: 474 Thanks: 82 Thanked 117 Times in 79 Posts	there are several photos of spandau rifles on the internet in which you can see the type of crown and the stamped lettering used on rifles of the same time period. here some example. is it reasonable to think the factory would use a different style of crown on lugers, if they made them or reworked them? the style of the crown on the rifles does change over the years but the 1918 rifle has a most unique crown. one that not appear on the lugers from 1918? http://www.google.com/imgres?hl=en&c...r:8,s:12,i:142 http://www.google.com/imgres?start=2...59&tx=62&ty=42 http://www.google.com/imgres?hl=en&c...67&tx=50&ty=91