Imperial proofs - Page 3

Edward Tinker · 08-31-2012, 02:49 PM

Everything depends on what the whiting is, but most are easily removed with a toothbrush and gun oil

Not sure how you could damage it unless you used something sharp and hard like metal?

friendlyfred · 08-31-2012, 03:13 PM

Sorry but I mis-spelled the author of the article Mr. Mittleman. I am incorrect in one post, the distances between what is on my toggle and Mr. Mittleman's article ARE different. The distances are different in the two "supposed authentic" lugers themselves as well as what is on mine. All three are different. I'm really curious about the "curly" figure 2 on mine. While the figure 2 on mine is the first number 27...the figure 2 on the pictorial example is the second number.

If these pistols were not mass production items, it is entirely possible that each could be a little different.

Food for thought???

Norme · 08-31-2012, 03:46 PM

Hi Fred you can use a product called Break Free applied with a toothbrush or, if necessary a toothpick, to remove the whiting. It won't harm the finish. I've also used Hoppe's #9 with equally good results.
I don't own a Spandau, but I'm a not an entirely disinterested party. I bought a fake Navy from the same dealer who sold you you're gun. The general consensus nowadays is that all, and I repeat, all, Spandau Lugers are fakes, including the ones in Mr Mittleman's article. Jan C. Still devoted a couple of pages to Spandaus in "Imperial Lugers", 1991, but doesn't mention them in "Central Powers",2007.
Kind regards, Norm

friendlyfred · 08-31-2012, 04:32 PM

Hi Norm, I didn't get mine directly from Schattuck. I bought mine from a fellow in Oregon who had purchased a collection. I got the Mittleman article from Schattuck when I contacted him....after I had purchased it. Ralph asked which number I had, and stated that it was "good" and that he had owned it at one time.

Darn sorry you got bit on a Navy. I bought some stock in the Brooklyn Bridge once too <VBG>.

Although the general consensus is all Spandau's are fakes, to the best of my knowledge (and please correct me if I am wrong) nobody has definitively proved that they were never made.

People for years vowed that the earth was flat.

Best regards to all...

Fred

friendlyfred · 08-31-2012, 06:24 PM

A very high quality scan of the original magazine article would be fine..BUT...the original intact magazine would be my first choice.
Are you teasing, or do you have the magazine?

friendlyfred · 08-31-2012, 06:49 PM

My searches for the magazine have come up empty, but similar issues are asking $10-12.00.
If, when you get the mag, it contains what I posted earlier...$25...and you ship it.

Fred

Ron Wood · 08-31-2012, 06:52 PM

Sure would be nice to see a readable scan of the article! Don't want to cut Fred out of owning the magazine, but I would like to read the article.

CJS57 · 08-31-2012, 07:06 PM

IF, the stamp was a pantograph, what was it copied from???

It could have been copied from a rifle?

friendlyfred · 08-31-2012, 07:07 PM

I think it would be great if everyone here had access to a high quality scan of the article...

Never, never stop learning....

"I had no shoes and complained. Then I met a man with no feet."

Got to go feed my horses..and pick up the "leftovers"... Fred

friendlyfred · 08-31-2012, 07:08 PM

CJS...yep it could have been a rifle for the word SPANDAU, but not for the proof marks...

MFC · 09-01-2012, 12:53 AM

Hi Fred,
The pic of the DWM toggle in your post #41 clearly shows bevels on the sides. The toggle on the "Spandau" does not. There would be no "dishing" if the toggle was ground/filed/sanded down flat across the entire surface. There are no Luger variations that I've ever heard of which don't have bevels on the forward toggle.
Your "Spandau" toggle also shows "steps" not found on other toggles. This is also another indication that the "new" surface is lower than the original.

CJS57 · 09-01-2012, 09:37 AM

About pantographing the Spandou, It would be easy enough for any graphic artist to "create" or draw the word and the crown for the panotgraph machine to follow.

MFC · 09-01-2012, 10:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by postino

Some months ago, I posted a similar remark about a new members' Luger toggle, and was told [in a subsequent post] that there were examples of toggles with no bevels...

I'd bet those toggles don't show remnants of prexisting bevels and the "steps".

Patronen · 09-01-2012, 10:44 AM

Page 216 of the Luger Book has a Top view of the whole pistol and toggle unit of another Spandau if one is curious.

friendlyfred · 09-01-2012, 10:16 PM

gonna take a closer look at the area you circled. I looked before and found no "steps" but want to take a second look...

I will try and get some close up pix of area you circled and post..

It would be great if patronen would scan and post the pix on PP207...I don't have the book..

Fred

Quote:

Originally Posted by MFC

Hi Fred,
The pic of the DWM toggle in your post #41 clearly shows bevels on the sides. The toggle on the "Spandau" does not. There would be no "dishing" if the toggle was ground/filed/sanded down flat across the entire surface. There are no Luger variations that I've ever heard of which don't have bevels on the forward toggle.
Your "Spandau" toggle also shows "steps" not found on other toggles. This is also another indication that the "new" surface is lower than the original.

friendlyfred · 09-01-2012, 10:18 PM

Meant to type pp 216..

sheepherder · 09-01-2012, 10:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by friendlyfred

It would be great if patronen would scan and post the pix on PP207...I don't have the book..

I do...But it's not a great photo...

Patronen · 09-01-2012, 10:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by friendlyfred

gonna take a closer look at the area you circled. I looked before and found no "steps" but want to take a second look...

I will try and get some close up pix of area you circled and post..

It would be great if patronen would scan and post the pix on PP207...I don't have the book..

Fred

I don't have a scanner, but may be able to photograph it sometime tommorrow and post.

alanint · 09-01-2012, 11:06 PM

Are all "Spandau" Lugers 1918 chamber dated?

Norme · 09-01-2012, 11:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alanint

Are all "Spandau" Lugers 1918 chamber dated?

Hi Doug, There is a 1917 Spandau illustrated in "Imperial Lugers" by Jan C. Still. Regards, Norm

08-31-2012, 06:52 PM	#47
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 6,986 Thanks: 1,065 Thanked 5,088 Times in 1,674 Posts	Sure would be nice to see a readable scan of the article! Don't want to cut Fred out of owning the magazine, but I would like to read the article. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

09-01-2012, 12:53 AM	#51
MFC User Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Louisiana Posts: 1,237 Thanks: 183 Thanked 281 Times in 162 Posts	Hi Fred, The pic of the DWM toggle in your post #41 clearly shows bevels on the sides. The toggle on the "Spandau" does not. There would be no "dishing" if the toggle was ground/filed/sanded down flat across the entire surface. There are no Luger variations that I've ever heard of which don't have bevels on the forward toggle. Your "Spandau" toggle also shows "steps" not found on other toggles. This is also another indication that the "new" surface is lower than the original. Attached Images __________________ Mike C. Last edited by MFC; 09-01-2012 at 02:36 AM.

09-01-2012, 10:44 AM	#54
Patronen User Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 312 Thanks: 335 Thanked 93 Times in 70 Posts	Page 216 of the Luger Book has a Top view of the whole pistol and toggle unit of another Spandau if one is curious. __________________ Dave

08-31-2012, 02:49 PM	#41
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,909 Thanks: 1,986 Thanked 4,500 Times in 2,076 Posts	Everything depends on what the whiting is, but most are easily removed with a toothbrush and gun oil Not sure how you could damage it unless you used something sharp and hard like metal? __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

08-31-2012, 03:13 PM	#42
friendlyfred User Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Washington State Posts: 33 Thanks: 5 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Sorry but I mis-spelled the author of the article Mr. Mittleman. I am incorrect in one post, the distances between what is on my toggle and Mr. Mittleman's article ARE different. The distances are different in the two "supposed authentic" lugers themselves as well as what is on mine. All three are different. I'm really curious about the "curly" figure 2 on mine. While the figure 2 on mine is the first number 27...the figure 2 on the pictorial example is the second number. If these pistols were not mass production items, it is entirely possible that each could be a little different. Food for thought???

08-31-2012, 03:46 PM	#43
Norme Always A Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Colorado Posts: 2,414 Thanks: 224 Thanked 2,591 Times in 930 Posts	Hi Fred you can use a product called Break Free applied with a toothbrush or, if necessary a toothpick, to remove the whiting. It won't harm the finish. I've also used Hoppe's #9 with equally good results. I don't own a Spandau, but I'm a not an entirely disinterested party. I bought a fake Navy from the same dealer who sold you you're gun. The general consensus nowadays is that all, and I repeat, all, Spandau Lugers are fakes, including the ones in Mr Mittleman's article. Jan C. Still devoted a couple of pages to Spandaus in "Imperial Lugers", 1991, but doesn't mention them in "Central Powers",2007. Kind regards, Norm

08-31-2012, 04:32 PM	#44
friendlyfred User Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Washington State Posts: 33 Thanks: 5 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Hi Norm, I didn't get mine directly from Schattuck. I bought mine from a fellow in Oregon who had purchased a collection. I got the Mittleman article from Schattuck when I contacted him....after I had purchased it. Ralph asked which number I had, and stated that it was "good" and that he had owned it at one time. Darn sorry you got bit on a Navy. I bought some stock in the Brooklyn Bridge once too <VBG>. Although the general consensus is all Spandau's are fakes, to the best of my knowledge (and please correct me if I am wrong) nobody has definitively proved that they were never made. People for years vowed that the earth was flat. Best regards to all... Fred

08-31-2012, 06:24 PM	#45
friendlyfred User Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Washington State Posts: 33 Thanks: 5 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	A very high quality scan of the original magazine article would be fine..BUT...the original intact magazine would be my first choice. Are you teasing, or do you have the magazine?

08-31-2012, 06:49 PM	#46
friendlyfred User Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Washington State Posts: 33 Thanks: 5 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	My searches for the magazine have come up empty, but similar issues are asking $10-12.00. If, when you get the mag, it contains what I posted earlier...$25...and you ship it. Fred

08-31-2012, 07:06 PM	#48
CJS57 User Join Date: Nov 2011 Posts: 224 Thanks: 0 Thanked 81 Times in 41 Posts	IF, the stamp was a pantograph, what was it copied from??? It could have been copied from a rifle?

08-31-2012, 07:07 PM	#49
friendlyfred User Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Washington State Posts: 33 Thanks: 5 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I think it would be great if everyone here had access to a high quality scan of the article... Never, never stop learning.... "I had no shoes and complained. Then I met a man with no feet." Got to go feed my horses..and pick up the "leftovers"... Fred

08-31-2012, 07:08 PM	#50
friendlyfred User Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Washington State Posts: 33 Thanks: 5 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	CJS...yep it could have been a rifle for the word SPANDAU, but not for the proof marks...

09-01-2012, 09:37 AM	#52
CJS57 User Join Date: Nov 2011 Posts: 224 Thanks: 0 Thanked 81 Times in 41 Posts	About pantographing the Spandou, It would be easy enough for any graphic artist to "create" or draw the word and the crown for the panotgraph machine to follow.

09-01-2012, 10:18 PM	#56
friendlyfred User Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Washington State Posts: 33 Thanks: 5 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Meant to type pp 216..

09-01-2012, 11:06 PM	#59
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,916 Times in 1,192 Posts	Are all "Spandau" Lugers 1918 chamber dated?