HELP! NAZI SS Luger or Fake??? - Page 3

MP38 · 03-04-2005, 03:41 PM

I would just like to add my .02 to this.
One rule I live by, and this goes for all WWII collectables, not just lugers or pistol in general.
That rule is this: "Always buy the item, don't buy the story!"

This gun is an obvious fake, but he sold you on the story!
I'm not a lawyer, but I don't think you have a legal case here either. You did recieve something in trade for your Dutch luger. Even though it wasn't an even trade, you still agreed to it at the time. Therefor, I don't believe you have the right to re-claim you Dutch luger, and cetainly don't have the right to claim his G43.

Also, for the gentleman that stated earlier in this thread that he doesn't think any WWII German firearm ever had SS or DH markings on them, I would like to point out than many SS rifles were re-works, and many of them did have SS and DH markings on them!

Matt

historybuffguy@aol.com · 03-04-2005, 03:57 PM

The seller told me had the gun for 35 years.... bought it from a WW2 US Army veteran.... and that the gun is an original SS marked Luger.

Also, that he was able to trace down the original SS officer of the gun.

According to your interpretation, there is no such thing as provance, just good story telling??

If making up stories are okay... they we really live in a messed up world, in which nobody should trust one another.

Verbal communication can be a contract, and binding in the court of law.

You sound like one of those dealers to avoid at gun shows???

Doug G. · 03-04-2005, 04:21 PM

Robert, I think that Matt is giving you "some" sage advise. It is true without TRUE provenance, only pay for the item in question period! I have photo's of a highly engraved presentation Luger with provenance that is a FAKE! This gun was verified as original by the seller (Simpsons) and has changed hands several times in the low 5 figure range. Again just goes to show that you buy the gun and not the story.
As for Matt's comment that you do not have any recourse I believe him to be incorrect. You gave the man a honest gun. He in turn gave you something that is bogus. If he took a lie detector test I would bet he would fail miserably! The story he wove could be used against him in court as intent to defraud. Plain and simple.

historybuffguy@aol.com · 03-04-2005, 04:34 PM

Thanks Doug...

I appreciate the comments....

I was told that this "SS Luger" was done in the 1980's by two well known collector's that allegely have original dies, etc.

So, when the gentleman traded me this Luger, for my Dutch Luger.... he in fact did not have it for 35 years, nor obtain it from a WWII vet, etc.

The book was printed in 1989... and I suspect the "SS Luger" was doctored at that time, to match the book.

I am just glad I don't have it anymore.

Robert

Vlim · 03-04-2005, 05:14 PM

Hi Matt,

Can you point me towards any written proof, documentation, marking instructions regarding SS-marking of firearms?

I'd be glad to take your point once I see some old-world documentation backing it up.

MP38 · 03-04-2005, 05:53 PM

Thanks Doug for agreeing with my basic rule.

However, you are incorrect about his legal rights. The seller in this case did lie. However, if he truely believed it was a correct SS gun, then in his mind, he was telling the truth.
You can't sue a guy for being a moron! That's not against the law! If that were the case, I'd have $$$ coming out both ends! and our jails would be way over-crowded!
Perhaps I am wrong. You could certainly try to push it, but would it really be worth it? I doubt it.

DWM,
If you are referring to the SS marked K98s I mentioned, just pick up any good book on K98s, or K98 snipers (like Peter Senichs' book).

Robert,
I'm certainly not a dealer, and I'm certainly not a lier either. Please don't make such degrading remarks towards me. I was mearly trying to give you some advise on your situation. Forgive me for trying to help!

Matt

Doug G. · 03-04-2005, 06:03 PM

Matt, I believe that this seller probably had a good idea that the gun was bogus. He is in the business of buying and selling WWI & WWII artifacts. Unless he is a complete moron he is culpable. I know of a seller of German medals, edged weapons and general artifacts. He has had bogus items from time to time. When asked about authentisity of a certain questionable piece his normal response is "well it looks ok to me"! He has been dealing in militaria for more years than I've been alive. He knows what he is doing.

The bottom line in all collecting is Caveat Emptor

saxman · 03-08-2005, 04:59 PM

All's well that ends well, I guess. I think historybuffguy got out of this one smelling like a rose, and was extremely lucky to get anything of value out of the seller. Other than the ludicrous 'Totenkopf', I thought the lettering on the front strap definitely did not look like stamps the Germans would have used.

becker · 03-14-2005, 07:05 PM

My first post; its great to be here.

Some thoughts on this thread..........
It seems to me we to often blame the victims of crooked Dealers and collectors rather than the ones who do the misrepresenting.It is almost as if we accept getting ripped off as part of the business.

Should I believe a dealer when he says its all matching or do i start taking the gun apart at his table to check?(assuming he lets me)
Does the dealer have an obligation to tell me the gun does not function correctly or that there is reweld on the frame not visible from external examination?
I fail to see how any of these are any different than lying about markings on a gun.
I also fail to see how any amount of money spent on books would have helped HBGUY as the gun was in a book.Besides very few books that i have seen have much on fakes.
I was glad to see HBGUY threatened the dealer with legal action and didn't
accept the situation as simply " the cost of doing business".
There was a case several years ago with "The Antiques Roadshow" where one of their appraisors got sued and lost so there is hope!!!!!!!
Good Job HistoryBuffGuy !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

minigun · 03-16-2005, 12:11 AM

I remember something on the case of the "Antiques Roadshow". That's where his case law would have probably started.

If I'm paying a bunch for a gun and the dealer (or seller) is telling me that the Luger is "all matching", I'm sure gonna ask to take it apart first (or at least have him do it). I'm definitly gonna check before handing over cash. If he tells me that there is no need or rejects my request for that inspection, I walk. But that's just me.

03-08-2005, 04:59 PM	#48
saxman User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 301 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	All's well that ends well, I guess. I think historybuffguy got out of this one smelling like a rose, and was extremely lucky to get anything of value out of the seller. Other than the ludicrous 'Totenkopf', I thought the lettering on the front strap definitely did not look like stamps the Germans would have used. __________________ You can lead 'em to the water, but you can't make 'em drink.

03-04-2005, 03:41 PM	#41
MP38 User Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Wisconsin Posts: 464 Thanks: 36 Thanked 113 Times in 60 Posts	I would just like to add my .02 to this. One rule I live by, and this goes for all WWII collectables, not just lugers or pistol in general. That rule is this: "Always buy the item, don't buy the story!" This gun is an obvious fake, but he sold you on the story! I'm not a lawyer, but I don't think you have a legal case here either. You did recieve something in trade for your Dutch luger. Even though it wasn't an even trade, you still agreed to it at the time. Therefor, I don't believe you have the right to re-claim you Dutch luger, and cetainly don't have the right to claim his G43. Also, for the gentleman that stated earlier in this thread that he doesn't think any WWII German firearm ever had SS or DH markings on them, I would like to point out than many SS rifles were re-works, and many of them did have SS and DH markings on them! Matt

03-04-2005, 03:57 PM	#42
historybuffguy@aol.com User Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Phoenix Posts: 37 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	The seller told me had the gun for 35 years.... bought it from a WW2 US Army veteran.... and that the gun is an original SS marked Luger. Also, that he was able to trace down the original SS officer of the gun. According to your interpretation, there is no such thing as provance, just good story telling?? If making up stories are okay... they we really live in a messed up world, in which nobody should trust one another. Verbal communication can be a contract, and binding in the court of law. You sound like one of those dealers to avoid at gun shows???

03-04-2005, 04:21 PM	#43
Doug G. User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Illinois Posts: 713 Thanks: 1 Thanked 53 Times in 17 Posts	Robert, I think that Matt is giving you "some" sage advise. It is true without TRUE provenance, only pay for the item in question period! I have photo's of a highly engraved presentation Luger with provenance that is a FAKE! This gun was verified as original by the seller (Simpsons) and has changed hands several times in the low 5 figure range. Again just goes to show that you buy the gun and not the story. As for Matt's comment that you do not have any recourse I believe him to be incorrect. You gave the man a honest gun. He in turn gave you something that is bogus. If he took a lie detector test I would bet he would fail miserably! The story he wove could be used against him in court as intent to defraud. Plain and simple.

03-04-2005, 04:34 PM	#44
historybuffguy@aol.com User Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Phoenix Posts: 37 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Thanks Doug... I appreciate the comments.... I was told that this "SS Luger" was done in the 1980's by two well known collector's that allegely have original dies, etc. So, when the gentleman traded me this Luger, for my Dutch Luger.... he in fact did not have it for 35 years, nor obtain it from a WWII vet, etc. The book was printed in 1989... and I suspect the "SS Luger" was doctored at that time, to match the book. I am just glad I don't have it anymore. Robert

03-04-2005, 05:14 PM	#45
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,032 Thanks: 1,018 Thanked 3,873 Times in 1,184 Posts	Hi Matt, Can you point me towards any written proof, documentation, marking instructions regarding SS-marking of firearms? I'd be glad to take your point once I see some old-world documentation backing it up.

03-04-2005, 05:53 PM	#46
MP38 User Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Wisconsin Posts: 464 Thanks: 36 Thanked 113 Times in 60 Posts	Thanks Doug for agreeing with my basic rule. However, you are incorrect about his legal rights. The seller in this case did lie. However, if he truely believed it was a correct SS gun, then in his mind, he was telling the truth. You can't sue a guy for being a moron! That's not against the law! If that were the case, I'd have $$$ coming out both ends! and our jails would be way over-crowded! Perhaps I am wrong. You could certainly try to push it, but would it really be worth it? I doubt it. DWM, If you are referring to the SS marked K98s I mentioned, just pick up any good book on K98s, or K98 snipers (like Peter Senichs' book). Robert, I'm certainly not a dealer, and I'm certainly not a lier either. Please don't make such degrading remarks towards me. I was mearly trying to give you some advise on your situation. Forgive me for trying to help! Matt

03-04-2005, 06:03 PM	#47
Doug G. User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Illinois Posts: 713 Thanks: 1 Thanked 53 Times in 17 Posts	Matt, I believe that this seller probably had a good idea that the gun was bogus. He is in the business of buying and selling WWI & WWII artifacts. Unless he is a complete moron he is culpable. I know of a seller of German medals, edged weapons and general artifacts. He has had bogus items from time to time. When asked about authentisity of a certain questionable piece his normal response is "well it looks ok to me"! He has been dealing in militaria for more years than I've been alive. He knows what he is doing. The bottom line in all collecting is Caveat Emptor

03-14-2005, 07:05 PM	#49
becker User Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 11 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	My first post; its great to be here. Some thoughts on this thread.......... It seems to me we to often blame the victims of crooked Dealers and collectors rather than the ones who do the misrepresenting.It is almost as if we accept getting ripped off as part of the business. Should I believe a dealer when he says its all matching or do i start taking the gun apart at his table to check?(assuming he lets me) Does the dealer have an obligation to tell me the gun does not function correctly or that there is reweld on the frame not visible from external examination? I fail to see how any of these are any different than lying about markings on a gun. I also fail to see how any amount of money spent on books would have helped HBGUY as the gun was in a book.Besides very few books that i have seen have much on fakes. I was glad to see HBGUY threatened the dealer with legal action and didn't accept the situation as simply " the cost of doing business". There was a case several years ago with "The Antiques Roadshow" where one of their appraisors got sued and lost so there is hope!!!!!!! Good Job HistoryBuffGuy !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

03-16-2005, 12:11 AM	#50
minigun User Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Texas Posts: 424 Thanks: 15 Thanked 19 Times in 14 Posts	I remember something on the case of the "Antiques Roadshow". That's where his case law would have probably started. If I'm paying a bunch for a gun and the dealer (or seller) is telling me that the Luger is "all matching", I'm sure gonna ask to take it apart first (or at least have him do it). I'm definitly gonna check before handing over cash. If he tells me that there is no need or rejects my request for that inspection, I walk. But that's just me.