An interesting KU Luger - Page 3

Mike Jones · 07-23-2002, 12:29 PM

Hugh

I have a letter from Heinrich Krieghoff concerning the KU Lugers. Mr. Krieghoff stated his factory never reworked or assembled pistols from Mauser made parts. He also said His factory never delivered Mauser assembled Lugers to the Luftwaffe.

Mike

Hugh · 07-23-2002, 02:41 PM

[img]eek.gif[/img]
Mike,

I guess we are back to step one then, huh?

"While it is apparent that the Ku Lugers were assembled for the Luftwaffe from leftover or missized parts, the time and place of assembly has not been satisfactorily established. A 1941 assembly by Mauser is the most likely; however, the finish is cruder than that of the 1941 Mauser Army contract. Some suggest an assembly date as late as 1944. Assembly at a different plant is also possible. According to Albert Speer, Minister of Armaments (in his book INFILTRATION), there were plans in July, 1942, to continue production of the P.08 at the Neuengamme Concentration Camp. It is estimated that about 5,000 Ku Lugers were assembled by Mauser or at another plant sometime in the 1941 to 1944 time span." (Still)

[img]confused.gif[/img]

Orv Reichert · 07-23-2002, 02:43 PM

Yes...you posted while I was composing my message.. we were 2 minutes apart! [you first]

Orv

John Sabato · 07-23-2002, 03:11 PM

Hey Mike, that letter from Herr Krieghoff sounds like a wonderful piece of Luger history... Would it be possible for you to scan and post it here on the forum?

Do you have any other of Herr Krieghoff's recollections regarding the production of Lugers?

thanks from a history buff...

John D. · 07-23-2002, 04:19 PM

Hi John,

I think the letter being referred to was written in 1964 addressed to Mr. Harry Jones which recently appeared in "AutoMag" (December 2001 issue or January 2002?). While I don't have my copies of NAPCA's excellent newsletter here - as I recall, there is also a very good dissertation by Mr. John Pearson (I think that was the author - but I'll check tonite?) regarding Ku Lugers which offers a different answer to the "Ku" question. However, Mr. Pearson also summarizes his thoughts by stating his belief that "Ku" Lugers were produced by Mauser with arsenal replacement parts and were destined for a specialized branch of the Luftwaffe called the "Coastal Police". The "Kusten Polizei" would have appropriated Luftwaffe Proofed Lugers, according to Mr. Pearson - and apparently, one such specialized "Kusten Polizei" full uniform exists in a collection, including the specialized gorget - and this uniform includes a "Ku" Luger.

I'll try to dig out the full newsletter later tonight, if you are interested... these are from my scribbles in my notebook which I made when I first saw the article...

HTH..!!!

MauserLugers · 07-23-2002, 07:20 PM

Hi,
Some of you might remember a KU Luger that was offered for sale on the old Luger Forum by Ray Holt. I ended up purchasing that gun and it was a direct vet purchase by Mr Holt. The serial number is 1693 KU. There are two interesting things about that gun: (1) the barrel is a G-date barrel with a w/154 acceptance proof, and (2) the two matching magazines are one black plastic and the other aluminium fxo's. -- Also, some of the parts are not serial numbered as on all KU Lugers. On this one the hold open and extracter are blank. It is a byf 41 variation and not too far below Hughs. -- I have a couple of these and the grips have the full four digit serial number inside. -- I do not think these are make from "rejected" parts and I do not think they were for the "civilian" accquisition. I think they were for the military and assembled from parts on hand. Tom Armstrong suggests that they were make in concentratin camps from surplus parts and my Luger seems to fit into that opinion with the g-date barrel band and the W/154 proofs. --- At first I didn't think Hughs gun was correct, but the receiver has the KU LZA or LA correct proof, so apparently it was one time an original 1938 KU. Good hunting everyone -- Bill Munis

crgkstnr · 07-23-2002, 10:54 PM

I've heard of the Neungame(sp) concentration camp theory before.
How many Ku lugers were assembled? To set up a small assembly plant at a concentration camp and
train prisoners to do semi skilled assembly work for a small number of lugers sounds farfetched.
Weren't prisoners usually brought to factories?

Craig

Jerry Harris · 07-24-2002, 12:28 AM

If the coastal police theory from John D.'s post is going to hold up, "Kuste" (coast) should have an umlauted "u" like that in the "Ku" stamp on Hugh's pistol. According to my dictionary, it does.

Strider · 07-24-2002, 10:26 AM

Jerry, when you say that it is supposed to be umlauted, is supposed to look like this.

Ã?Â¼ or Ã??

Sid.

Roadkill · 07-25-2002, 10:56 AM

And the saga continues. If the "K" is the production block then the "u" is an additional identifier (my theory). If the "Ku" is the identifier then its not a "K" block gun, but a completely separate stand alone "Ku" series(Kuste). If its a "Ku" series with the known numbers discussed then there should be thousands of them around. Is there any history of the Luger manufacturers specifically producing a series that were marked at the factory at the time of production for a designated unit? And are there any "K" blocks with sns in the range of the "Ku"s in 41? Gentlemen, speak of me as you will, but I still think its a production overrun indicator.

RK

Hugh · 07-25-2002, 12:22 PM

RK,

Pay attention! Go back and read the comments I posted from Still & Gibson. There has not been a 38 dated Ku until this one. Most are 41 dated. The S/42 on the receiver indicates it is a Mauser replacement part. <img src="graemlins/c.gif" border="0" alt="[ouch]" />

Roadkill · 07-25-2002, 01:53 PM

Ok,Ok, information overload. My mistake. What about the rest?

RK

Jerry Harris · 07-25-2002, 11:45 PM

We've got a good start, so let's go for 3 pages on this immortal topic.

Sid, very nice real umlauts! I've done them in word processors but here I feel...limited.

RK, I like your concept but the mark on Hugh's gun is Ku (Capital K, small umlauted u). If it's a k-block overrun, wouldn't it be a small k, or am I stuck in Imperial thinking? [img]tongue.gif[/img]

Strider · 07-26-2002, 10:14 AM

Jerry,
Glad you liked the umlauts. It is real easy to do. I will start another thread later in the general discussion area and show everyone the trick to doing these and other accents as well.
Sid.

Roadkill · 07-26-2002, 10:26 AM

Good point. Guess what? I don't know.

RK

Dwight Gruber · 07-26-2002, 11:09 AM

[quote]Originally posted by Jerry Harris:
<strong>...RK, I like your concept but the mark on Hugh's gun is Ku (Capital K, small umlauted u). If it's a k-block overrun, wouldn't it be a small k, or am I stuck in Imperial thinking?</strong><hr></blockquote>

If it were a k-block serial number, would not the letter be a script k? Also, when a serial number is present on the left side of the receiver, does the letter suffix appear along with it, or does the suffix only occur on the barrel and frame numbers?

--Dwight

John Sabato · 08-07-2002, 03:58 PM

Through the generosity and courtesy of Mike Jones... here is a copy of the Krieghoff letter regarding the Ku Lugers...

Click on the thumbnail image to see the letter full size...

<a href="http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/HK-letteronKu.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/HK-letteronKu.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>

sschultz · 08-07-2002, 11:27 PM

Did these 500-600 HK Post war lugers (mentioned in the letter) have either a date or serial numbered parts? -stuart

07-23-2002, 02:41 PM	#42
Hugh RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Southeast Texas Swamp Posts: 2,460 Thanks: 2 Thanked 165 Times in 64 Posts	[img]eek.gif[/img] Mike, I guess we are back to step one then, huh? "While it is apparent that the Ku Lugers were assembled for the Luftwaffe from leftover or missized parts, the time and place of assembly has not been satisfactorily established. A 1941 assembly by Mauser is the most likely; however, the finish is cruder than that of the 1941 Mauser Army contract. Some suggest an assembly date as late as 1944. Assembly at a different plant is also possible. According to Albert Speer, Minister of Armaments (in his book INFILTRATION), there were plans in July, 1942, to continue production of the P.08 at the Neuengamme Concentration Camp. It is estimated that about 5,000 Ku Lugers were assembled by Mauser or at another plant sometime in the 1941 to 1944 time span." (Still) [img]confused.gif[/img] __________________ *TRUMP FOR PREZ IN '20!*

07-23-2002, 02:43 PM	#43
Orv Reichert RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SW Washington State Posts: 339 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Yes...you posted while I was composing my message.. we were 2 minutes apart! [you first] Orv __________________ ORVEL L. "ORV" REICHERT

07-23-2002, 03:11 PM	#44
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,150 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	Hey Mike, that letter from Herr Krieghoff sounds like a wonderful piece of Luger history... Would it be possible for you to scan and post it here on the forum? Do you have any other of Herr Krieghoff's recollections regarding the production of Lugers? thanks from a history buff... __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

07-24-2002, 10:26 AM	#49
Strider User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Albuquerque, New Mexico Posts: 256 Thanks: 26 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Jerry, when you say that it is supposed to be umlauted, is supposed to look like this. Ã?Â¼ or Ã?? Sid. __________________ Sid. Patience is a bitter plant, but it has sweet fruit. ~German Proverb If it is made before 1930 ..........It is a prototype.

07-25-2002, 12:22 PM	#51
Hugh RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Southeast Texas Swamp Posts: 2,460 Thanks: 2 Thanked 165 Times in 64 Posts	RK, Pay attention! Go back and read the comments I posted from Still & Gibson. There has not been a 38 dated Ku until this one. Most are 41 dated. The S/42 on the receiver indicates it is a Mauser replacement part. <img src="graemlins/c.gif" border="0" alt="[ouch]" /> __________________ *TRUMP FOR PREZ IN '20!*

07-23-2002, 12:29 PM	#41
Mike Jones User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Torrance, Calif. Posts: 67 Thanks: 10 Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts	Hugh I have a letter from Heinrich Krieghoff concerning the KU Lugers. Mr. Krieghoff stated his factory never reworked or assembled pistols from Mauser made parts. He also said His factory never delivered Mauser assembled Lugers to the Luftwaffe. Mike

07-23-2002, 04:19 PM	#45
John D. Administrator & Site Owner LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: A Little NE of Somewhere... Posts: 2,651 Thanks: 471 Thanked 513 Times in 127 Posts	Hi John, I think the letter being referred to was written in 1964 addressed to Mr. Harry Jones which recently appeared in "AutoMag" (December 2001 issue or January 2002?). While I don't have my copies of NAPCA's excellent newsletter here - as I recall, there is also a very good dissertation by Mr. John Pearson (I think that was the author - but I'll check tonite?) regarding Ku Lugers which offers a different answer to the "Ku" question. However, Mr. Pearson also summarizes his thoughts by stating his belief that "Ku" Lugers were produced by Mauser with arsenal replacement parts and were destined for a specialized branch of the Luftwaffe called the "Coastal Police". The "Kusten Polizei" would have appropriated Luftwaffe Proofed Lugers, according to Mr. Pearson - and apparently, one such specialized "Kusten Polizei" full uniform exists in a collection, including the specialized gorget - and this uniform includes a "Ku" Luger. I'll try to dig out the full newsletter later tonight, if you are interested... these are from my scribbles in my notebook which I made when I first saw the article... HTH..!!!

07-23-2002, 07:20 PM	#46
MauserLugers User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Philipsburg, Montana 59858 Posts: 250 Thanks: 0 Thanked 8 Times in 1 Post	Hi, Some of you might remember a KU Luger that was offered for sale on the old Luger Forum by Ray Holt. I ended up purchasing that gun and it was a direct vet purchase by Mr Holt. The serial number is 1693 KU. There are two interesting things about that gun: (1) the barrel is a G-date barrel with a w/154 acceptance proof, and (2) the two matching magazines are one black plastic and the other aluminium fxo's. -- Also, some of the parts are not serial numbered as on all KU Lugers. On this one the hold open and extracter are blank. It is a byf 41 variation and not too far below Hughs. -- I have a couple of these and the grips have the full four digit serial number inside. -- I do not think these are make from "rejected" parts and I do not think they were for the "civilian" accquisition. I think they were for the military and assembled from parts on hand. Tom Armstrong suggests that they were make in concentratin camps from surplus parts and my Luger seems to fit into that opinion with the g-date barrel band and the W/154 proofs. --- At first I didn't think Hughs gun was correct, but the receiver has the KU LZA or LA correct proof, so apparently it was one time an original 1938 KU. Good hunting everyone -- Bill Munis

07-23-2002, 10:54 PM	#47
crgkstnr User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Michigan, USA Posts: 26 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I've heard of the Neungame(sp) concentration camp theory before. How many Ku lugers were assembled? To set up a small assembly plant at a concentration camp and train prisoners to do semi skilled assembly work for a small number of lugers sounds farfetched. Weren't prisoners usually brought to factories? Craig

07-24-2002, 12:28 AM	#48
Jerry Harris User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Central Ohio Posts: 64 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	If the coastal police theory from John D.'s post is going to hold up, "Kuste" (coast) should have an umlauted "u" like that in the "Ku" stamp on Hugh's pistol. According to my dictionary, it does.

07-25-2002, 10:56 AM	#50
Roadkill User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 1,632 Thanks: 1 Thanked 28 Times in 17 Posts	And the saga continues. If the "K" is the production block then the "u" is an additional identifier (my theory). If the "Ku" is the identifier then its not a "K" block gun, but a completely separate stand alone "Ku" series(Kuste). If its a "Ku" series with the known numbers discussed then there should be thousands of them around. Is there any history of the Luger manufacturers specifically producing a series that were marked at the factory at the time of production for a designated unit? And are there any "K" blocks with sns in the range of the "Ku"s in 41? Gentlemen, speak of me as you will, but I still think its a production overrun indicator. RK

07-25-2002, 01:53 PM	#52
Roadkill User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 1,632 Thanks: 1 Thanked 28 Times in 17 Posts	Ok,Ok, information overload. My mistake. What about the rest? RK

07-25-2002, 11:45 PM	#53
Jerry Harris User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Central Ohio Posts: 64 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	We've got a good start, so let's go for 3 pages on this immortal topic. Sid, very nice real umlauts! I've done them in word processors but here I feel...limited. RK, I like your concept but the mark on Hugh's gun is Ku (Capital K, small umlauted u). If it's a k-block overrun, wouldn't it be a small k, or am I stuck in Imperial thinking? [img]tongue.gif[/img]

07-26-2002, 10:14 AM	#54
Strider User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Albuquerque, New Mexico Posts: 256 Thanks: 26 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Jerry, Glad you liked the umlauts. It is real easy to do. I will start another thread later in the general discussion area and show everyone the trick to doing these and other accents as well. Sid. __________________ Sid. Patience is a bitter plant, but it has sweet fruit. ~German Proverb If it is made before 1930 ..........It is a prototype.

07-26-2002, 10:26 AM	#55
Roadkill User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 1,632 Thanks: 1 Thanked 28 Times in 17 Posts	Good point. Guess what? I don't know. RK

07-26-2002, 11:09 AM	#56
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,889 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,281 Times in 423 Posts	[quote]Originally posted by Jerry Harris: <strong>...RK, I like your concept but the mark on Hugh's gun is Ku (Capital K, small umlauted u). If it's a k-block overrun, wouldn't it be a small k, or am I stuck in Imperial thinking?</strong><hr></blockquote> If it were a k-block serial number, would not the letter be a script k? Also, when a serial number is present on the left side of the receiver, does the letter suffix appear along with it, or does the suffix only occur on the barrel and frame numbers? --Dwight

08-07-2002, 03:58 PM	#57
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,150 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	Through the generosity and courtesy of Mike Jones... here is a copy of the Krieghoff letter regarding the Ku Lugers... Click on the thumbnail image to see the letter full size... <a href="http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/HK-letteronKu.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/HK-letteronKu.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a> __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

08-07-2002, 11:27 PM	#58
sschultz User Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: ca Posts: 22 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Did these 500-600 HK Post war lugers (mentioned in the letter) have either a date or serial numbered parts? -stuart