Top 10 K�¼ Theories

[Vlim]

This thread was started as the result of a nice discussion on a K�¼ luger.

The K�¼ lugers are a series of lugers that are quite undocumented and therefore initiated quite some discussion about their origin.

Some specifics:
These lugers are Mauser-made, with 41 chamber date codes and BYF or 42 Toggle codes but have a Luftwaffe acceptance stamp. Educated guesses of 3000 - 4000 pieces have been made.

Theory 1:
"Krieghoff assembled them from leftover Mauser parts in order to fullfill the increasing Luftwaffe demands"

This theory has been debunked by mr. Krieghoff himself, in a letter written in 1964 where he declared krieghoff had not used or transferred Mauser-made parts.

Theory 2:
"These Lugers were meant for the coastal squadrons of the Luftwaffe, the K�¼stenfliegerstaffeln"

A nice theory, but unit marking of P08's during WW2 was not common. The German language offers not a lot of workable words that start with K�¼. So although Mauser-made lugers could easily have found their way into Luftwaffe service, it's unlikely that they would have extra stampings.

Theory 3:
"K�¼ depicts a certain ... unit"

Same problem as with Theory 2. Unit marking of P08's was not performed during WW2.

Theory 4:
"K�¼ lugers were meant for service in the Hungarian air force during 1942-1945. K�¼ represents a Hungarian text meaning 'External' or a local rework code. This rework code would identify them as Hungarian state property or would free Mauser from defects (since they were overhauled and/or assembled in Hungary)."

This theory is formed by the presence of Luftwaffe acceptance marks, suggesting that these Mauser-made guns ended up in Luftwaffe use, but also had a need to be marked separately (outside German contract markings). Also the K�¼ lugers date from the same timespan (when official Luger acceptance by the WaA had already halted). A little-known fact is that the Hungarian army supplied troops, including an airforce group to Germany. These troops worked under German command. Hungarian government was not keen, but their army leaders were very pro-German.

Here is a piece from the work "A THOUSAND YEARS OF THE HUNGARIAN ART OF WAR" by Anthony Tihamer Komjathy that illustrates this:

"Hitler, in April (1942, GVV), issued his directives for the Summer of 1942, but he did not inform the Hungarian military leadership about his plans. Against the protest of the Hungarian general staff, he reserved the right to subordinate the Hungarian 2nd army to one of his army group commanders and to use the Hungarian army units as he saw fit.

The army, assembled in Hungary under the command of Colonel-General Gusztav Jany, was comprised of three army corps (with three light divisions each), one armored division, and a mixed airforce regiment. The tanks, armament and equipment for the mechanized forces were provided by the Germans upon payment of eight million pengo."

This equipment that Germany supplied was cheap material. Amongst them some refurbished (used) fighter planes. Hungarian airforce staff in 1940 was about 4300 men, with about 350 aircraft.

Problem with this theory is lack of evidence.

[Johnny C. Kitchens]

What about the K�¼ that have the E/655 Army inspection markings, or were you refering to the Luftwaffe proof marks? There are also the 41-S/42 versions of the K�¼. There are also the weird 1939-byf and 1940-42 versions. Another thought on the K�¼, is why the variation in location of the K�¼? Most are before the serial number, but some are after. Another hidden meaning to the K�¼ puzzle???

[Lugerdoc]

GVV, You left out my favorite theory, that the Luftwaffe Ordnance depots assembled these lugers from Mauser spare parts, left over at the end of their luger production in 1942. TH

[Vlim]

Hi,

This thread is meant as a thread to collect as much data and theories about them as possible, so keep them coming....

Data (components, stamps and numbers/locations) is also appreciated from K�¼ owners, of course.

[Lugerdoc]

GVV, I develope my theory based not only on the fact that by 1941 or 42, Mauser was undoubtedly very busy turning out other small arms for the army, but the LZA (Luftwaffe Ornance Depots) did have a certain amount of expertise regarding PO8s by then, having done repair work on them since 1936. Mauser no longer needed their PO8 tooling and jigs, having switched over to P38 production, and finally, the LZA acceptance only appears on the Ku production PO8s and not those made at KH. TH.

[Vlim]

Tom,

This information actually fits quite nicely into the 'Hungarian' theory, as the Luftwaffe was warming up for Barbarossa and the Hungarians had to be stocked up in the mean time as well. I find it particularly interesting that the Hungarians were supplied in mid-1942 with used/overhauled aircraft, indicating that the LZA could be involved somewhere in the supply chain.

Furthermore, the link between Krieghoff and Goering (the old buddies network), could even mean that Luftwaffe owned Mauser P08's were selected for second hand sale to the Hungarians, so that Krieghoff got space to supply the Luftwaffe with new Krieghoff-made replacement guns.

Mauser P08's in the Luftwaffe were as far as I know the result of placing several coastal divisions formerly under Navy command under Luftwaffe command instead. This meant that it was likely for Mauser P08's in need of service to end up at the LZA and possibly be filtered out there and replaced by (new) Krieghoffs.

[Johnny C. Kitchens]

On the theory 3 listed at the top, wasn't the Craotian 369 marking a unit marking from WWII? I realize that it could have been added by the unit and not the factory. Maybe something similar was done with the K�¼ marking? Just a thought to get thread going again...

[Vlim]

Johnny,

Of course a unit marking is possible, but this is mostly observed in groups that want to share a common identity. If the K�¼ marking would be found on standard pistols with standard acceptance marks, this would be my best guess too.

The problem with K�¼ marked guns is their combination of out of the ordinary markings, pointing towards an identifying purpose for the marking, other than that of a unit.

As John D. neatly stated: Finding a description to explain "K�¼" is one thing, finding a description that explains the Luftwaffe acceptance stamps, the fact that they were not produced for the luftwaffe, the fact that most are reworks and the K�¼ mark is the real challenge.

I am wondering if the placement of the K�¼ mark (before or after the serial number) can be explained by the theory that pre-K�¼ marked ones are made from surplus parts, that were unnumbered to start with and that post-K�¼ marked ones are reconditioned ones that already had a serial number?

A safe assumption is that pre-K�¼ ones were assembled on site X, while post-K�¼ ones were assembled on site Y.

Any thoughts or comments on this?

[Vlim]

Another interestig translation found on a Hungarian - German army site.

The German phrase for a Foreign Ministry is translated there as follows:

Ausw�¤rtiges Amt: K�¼l�¼gyminiszt�©rium

K�¼l�¼gy = Foreign.

[karmast]

The hungarian theory is completely new for me, but I found it were interesting to hear from it. And the translation would be a way to explain that. But why should the Ausw�¤rtiges Amt stamp German made P08 in foreign speach? K�¼l�¼gyminszterium is hungarian. I am not aware of other stamps like these, for example for romanian troops or something like that.

Goertz stated in his book "Die Pistole 08" that it was perhaps a the stamp of a lonely gunsmith, who build these guns from parts in the Luftwaffen-depots. In these depots must have been parts for Lugers, as well, as some lugers where reserve weapons for planes. As the war turned, maybe this gunsmith fixes some new Lugers out of these spare parts to supply the Luftwaffen-Felddivisionen, the airforce field divisions. But Goertz also stated "only a theory, but as good as any other".

[Lugerdoc]

GvV, Your's is the first time that I've heard the theory that some of the Ku's were reworks. I doubt it, since the serials are continuous, and I'd expect to see some DWM or Erfurt toggle marking on some of these, if reworks. TH

[Johnny C. Kitchens]

What about the mixture of parts such as byf toggle in S/42 receivers...

[Stevie]

I wonder if these pistols were put together from Mauser spare parts for the "final push to victory" that led up to the Battle of the Bulge, Hurtgen forest, and the terrible battles on the Eastern Front. The German army tried to bulk up in size, to try and chew what had been bitten off. Large quanitys of armaments were obviously required. They might have assembled the stock-pile of spare parts to arm the reinforced/newly created forces.

Seems logical, Stevie.

[Stevie]

On further thought, if anyone had a bona-fide vet bring back KU Luger from North Africa, it might establish a time line to work with. A lack of such a gun might mean "last ditch Lugers" from parts on hand/remans. Or Romanian/Hungarian Allies pistols. Got to be someone who knows?

[Hugh]

I have a 1938 byf KU, SN 1834KU. It has a small S42 stamped just in front of the serial number on the left side of the receiver. Doesn't this indicate a Mauser spare part?

[Vlim]

Stevie,

What I learned after looking through some Hungarian info, I was amazed to see that quite a number of Eastern-european airforce crew were diverted to Africa.

Karmast: Good point, what I actually meant was that this is proof that the K�¼ mark is an acceptable abbreviation for 'Foreign' in Hungary.

Hugh: Your guess is as good as mine. I just think it is strange to have some stamped before the number and some after... Does yours have a letter on the trigger guard, like the normal German military numbering? Any signs of number removal and restamping?

[Lugerdoc]

Stevie, I like your "Battle of the Buldge" theory, as the timing makes sense; now its just a matter of finding the German records of who assembled these unused (so not a rework) spare parts and when. Any volunteers? Th

[Hugh]

Gerben,

It does not have a letter under the SN on the frame. Check this thread on KU's from last October: http://forums.lugerforum.com/lugerforum/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=2;t=000679#0000 04
There are detailed pictures of my Luger there.

[Vlim]

Hugh,

I especially like yours, it appears to have a Russian capture mark. This makes it more obvious that these guns were used at the Eastern front rather than the Western.

Funny thing is that someone took the trouble to make these guns fit in a certain serial range, again pointing to some 'order' construction rather than a series of overhauled/refurbished guns on a lone Luftwaffe post.

[John Sabato]

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by Hugh:
<strong>There is a very fine line between "hobby' and "mental illness"</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Sometimes I think I have one foot on each side of the line... ...and I imagine some of you guys do too! <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />