Imperial proofs

[Neil Young]

In my notes on miscellaneous Luger facts that I have gleaned off of the forums, I have made the entry that all LP08s have breech blocks with Spandau proofs, while all barrels have Erfurt proofs, with the exception of late barrels, which have DWM proofs (no indication of when the change occurred). No good reason for this mixing of proofs has been found to date. I think this was for DWM LP08's.

What does a Spandau proof look like?

Neil

[Lugerdoc]

Neil, I agree that all the WW1 LPO8s that I've examined over the years have the Erfurt Eagle proof on the right side of the barrel. It's possible that since they produced the Artillery first, that they remained the sole manufacture of these barrels. TH

[Neil Young]

Thanks Tom. My artillery has the Erfurt proof on the barrel too. The proof on the breech block looks similar, but the bottom of the stamp is not clear, so I can't be sure what it is. I have not been able to find a picture of a Spandau proof, so I don't know what to look for.

Neil

[klaus 3338]

here are two pics of Spandau proofs....
there were minor variations during the years...

[Norme]

Hi Klaus, I never realized before that early DWMs had the Spandau mark. When did DWM get it's own eagle? Here's a clearer photo for your files. Best regards, Norm

[Ron Wood]

I have seen a couple of DWM LP08s with DWM barrel proofs, but the Erfurt barrels are far and away the most numerous.

[Neil Young]

Yes Ron, I only have one LP08, a 1916 DWM, and it has the Erfurt marked barrel.

Neil

[Dwight Gruber]

Proof eagles do not "belong to" a specific manufacture. Proofing officers--and inspectors--were assigned out of the Spandau arsenal. Each officer carried his own, personally-assigned stamp. The proofing officer assigned to DWM had a stamp with a different character from the proofing officer assigned to Erfurt; however, both stamps fell within the design requirements--"an heraldic eagle, displayed"--and both stamps indicated and certified the same thing.

An individual proofing officer, of course, could not personally proof and certify the hundreds of thousands of pistols which underwent proofing. These officers had staff underlings who were also trained in the proofing process, and they used the stamp of their officer to certify proof; the officer bore ultimete personal responsibility.

DWM was a private contractor, responsible to deliver P08s which entirely met specifications. the Royal Erfurt rifle factory was a government arms manufacturer, and the 1910 marking instructions were created to guide their imspection and acceptance of the P08 in detail.

The 1910 marking instructions require each part to be inspected and certified with the inspector's stamp. All Erfurt-manufactured parts bear this mark. No LP08 barrels which bear the proof stamp of the Erfurt proof officer also have Erfurt inspection marks, which indicate that they were not made at Erfurt. Stamping of the proof was the next-to-last stage in pistol acceptance, done well after the pistol was completely assembled, so proof stamps would not have been applied to the individual parts in any case.

The presence of the Erfurt-style proof on some DWM barrels and breechbocks suggests that a member of the Erfurt proof officer's staff was assigned to DWM to assist in proofing and stamping DWM-manufactured Lugers.

--Dwight

[klaus 3338]

[QUOTE=Dwight Gruber;208998]

The presence of the Erfurt-style proof on some DWM barrels and breechbocks suggests that a member of the Erfurt proof officer's staff was assigned to DWM to assist in proofing and stamping DWM-manufactured Lugers.

Thank you Dwight for the explanation!
You wrote that the Erfurt-style proof is on some DWM barrels and some breechblocks.
Almost all (I do not know 1 exaption) DWM P08 beechblocks and all DWM barrels from 1916 on have Erfurt-style proofs. In late 1918 are some exaptions. But all LP08 breechblocks have Spandau proofs. Do you have an idea of an explanation please?
I am trying to get an answe for this question since years.
Thanks Klaus

[Dwight Gruber]

Klaus,

I do not understand "Spandau proofs"??

--Dwight

[klaus 3338]

Dwight- you used the words “Erfurt style proof” for the power proof stamps (Beschussstempel in German) on all Erfurt Lugers and the breech blocks and barrels on the DMW Lugers 1915-1918.
The "Spandau proofs" are the power proof stamps on the DWM Lugers until 1915. As you reports above came the "Abnahmebeamte" Proofing officers and inspectors for the DWM Lugers from the Spandau Arsenal. And that was the reason that I used the words Spandau proofs.
Regards Klaus

[alvin]

Is this Spandau 'squirrel'? it looks like a DWM one

Q1: Does Spandau proof always come with Spandau toggle link?
Q2: Gortz and Walter said "surely.... Spandau guns were caninibalized from damaged guns during a time of great stress -- the great Spring Offensive of 1918".... no further explanation in the article though.... why 1918?

===
Initially, I guessed samples having 1918 on chamber.... but on second thought, that does not explain why only 1918 guns were damaged.

[klaus 3338]

Originally Posted by postino

Klaus -

Is that 'crouching squirrel with a crown' proof you posted a Spandau proof???

(Or should I say "Spandau inspectors' proof")???

It is the Spandau Power proof.
Spandau Inspecotor proofs are the crown/ gotic letter acceptance stamps as on the added picture.
I think that my English is too bad to write about the acceptance stamps.
Sorry
Klaus

[klaus 3338]

Originally Posted by alvin

Is this Spandau 'squirrel'? it looks like a DWM one

Q1: Does Spandau proof always come with Spandau toggle link?
Q2: Gortz and Walter said "surely.... Spandau guns were caninibalized from damaged guns during a time of great stress -- the great Spring Offensive of 1918".... no further explanation in the article though.... why 1918?

===
Initially, I guessed samples having 1918 on chamber.... but on second thought, that does not explain why only 1918 guns were damaged.

All DWM Lugers were proofed by inspectors which were stationed in Spandau. Spandau is a small city near Berlin where the DWM Lugers were made.
Answer for Q1: The Spandau proof we are talking about has nothing to do with the Spandau toggle

[Ron Wood]

This is an epiphany. I suddenly realize the point that Klaus is trying to make and see its relevance to the comments made by Dwight Gruber regarding the itinerate inspectors of military arms.

We collectors are used to referring to inspector’s marks on military Lugers of that period as being “Erfurt” or “DWM”, but in reality the proper designation of these marks should be “military acceptance” only and be relegated to the production facility to which they are associated.

Erfurt was a government arsenal producing military Lugers, so they rightfully had their own government employed military inspectors for their products. DWM, on the other hand, was a commercial firm producing weapons for the government. It follows that DWM should not be in the position of “accepting” their own products for the government. Therefore, there had to be a government entity that performed this function…to wit, the Spandau arsenal that was in proximity to the DWM production facility in Berlin. This implies that there are no DWM military inspector’s marks or proofs.

Therefore, it is evident that all military Lugers that were produced by DWM would necessarily bear “Spandau” inspector’s marks and proofs (as opposed to "DWM"). Consequently, the LP08 barrels produced by Erfurt bear the “Erfurt” power proof, and those very few LP08 barrels manufactured by DWM bear the “Spandau” power proof.

Hope I got that right .

[Neil Young]

Am I correct then that there is no such thing as a DWM Proof?

Neil

[Ron Wood]

Originally Posted by Neil Young

Am I correct then that there is no such thing as a DWM Proof?
Neil

Evidently not for guns produced under military contract. For military guns produced by DWM the "proofs" (inspector marks and firing/"power" proof) are Spandau markings according to Klaus. This makes sense as DWM as a private commercial enterprise should not have been in the position to "accept" their own products for the military. This requires us to get our head around a different terminology. "DWM" proofs would apply for commercial guns "proofed" by DWM in-house procedures. Miiltary guns, on the other hand would have "Spandau" proofs applied by government/military personnel.

Rich,
"Power" proof is what we would call a "firing proof" (the overload test)...same thing, different terminology.

[alanint]

Are there then any DWM proprietary proofs for any commercial models?

[Ron Wood]

I am not aware of any. The Crown/N proof would have been applied according to German proof laws and would not be proprietary to DWM, as would firearms produced for commercial sales by any other German weapon manufacturer.

[klaus 3338]

Originally Posted by postino

Klaus -

Your English is excellent, much better than mine...But I am not understanding the 'power' in 'power proof'...I think we Americans must use another term...

Maybe 'test proof'??? As in an overload cartridge used to test whether the chamber/barrel/action would withstand repeated abuse???

Your English is exellent.. thank you for the flowers, but I am feeling that it is terrible because I know how much work and problems are for me to write that what I mean in English and as we can see nobady tried to anwer my question about the different power proof stamps on the DWM lugers.
Yes I mean with power proof stamps the test proof.