Help - What's it worth?

notacatfan · 05-11-2013, 01:19 AM

My dad passed away last month; however, before he passed he asked me to take all of his guns (Mom's not comfortable w/firearms). Among his collection is a 1916 Luger, but I've received differing opinions on its value. Long story short - this belonged to either my dad's grandfather or uncle. It's a 9mm, has "Germany" stamped on the bottom of the barrel, "11" stamped in a couple places and "5980" stamped elsewhere. One individual informed me it was worth about $500; another person said between $1500 and $2000. Basically, I'm trying to decide whether or not I should sell it or keep it in the family. Expertise is appreciated!

notacatfan · 05-11-2013, 01:25 AM

...and more available...

lfid · 05-11-2013, 05:06 AM

looks like you likely have an original matching 1916 dwm navy luger barrel + slide , and slide has a non-matching dwm toggle assembly from a commercial likely 1920s era commercial luger in the slide. caliber should be 9mm luger. germany stamp on the barrel would likely indicate a ww1 part merged into the remainder of the commercial luger

the non-matching lower frame asy looks like a 1920s era commercial luger

if frame parts are marked with 11 or 80 numbers that would help value
if barrel bore is shiny and looks sharp edges on the rifling that would help value

parts look like mostly original blue and mechanically excellent

grips look maybe ww1 ish and would help if numbered inside with last two digits of the barrel serial ( ie original from the same 1916 navy ) but that is not very likely

if magazine is as nice as rest of gun that would help value and any number on wood base would be interesting if matches the navy barrel ( again not likely )

assuming all the help items are "yes" Im thinking you have about value $1200 due to parts
and also there should be interest for a "navy" shooter. $500 seems very low and probably a reseller or parts hunter case.

overall this seems like a 6" barrel optioned 1920/23 dwm commercial import with mainly ww1 derived parts , refurbished in germany and sold by an importer in usa to post ww1 market for lugers. I think only one part like barrel or frame required the germany mark for import.
some of these were upgraded in usa with longer barrels etc

really nice ! shooter , semi collector value , I think
good luck ! with the sale - consider placing for sale here in the forum section - after you get more opinions as to value

seems to me you would want to keep it in family - esp if only collector type gun in the estate

Bill

notacatfan · 05-11-2013, 10:28 AM

Perhaps this will help

lfid · 05-11-2013, 03:34 PM

very nice original type magazine !

front edge of breechblock dings looks likely it "handled" various stovepipe or reversed empty cartridges probably after the navy slide was added - no big deal just interesting

overall still in $1200 range I think - you might start at $1500 and then reduce down until sells - the for sale forum here allows reductions as time goes by - but not unpriced / auction

suggest you wait until you have other member comments here
Bill

Ron Smith · 05-11-2013, 04:12 PM

I pretty much agree with Bill.

The Navy parts bring pretty good money. I would call it a high shooter grade as it is. $1200 would be a maximum I would expect, but I think it's worth that to the right buyer. If you sold it to a dealer or parts vendor they would offer you much less, and would make much more.

Ron

padredan · 05-12-2013, 12:42 AM

i agree it is in the 1100 to 1200 range as a really nice shooter

DavidJayUden · 05-12-2013, 08:38 AM

If It were mine I'd be looking for a Navy rear toggle link with sight...THEN you have a great shooter.
dju

ithacaartist · 05-12-2013, 09:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by davidjayuden

if it were mine i'd be looking for a navy rear toggle link with sight...then you have a great shooter.
Dju

+1!

Norme · 05-12-2013, 10:37 PM

Hi Amy, A belated welcome to the forum! This gun may be worth more than you think. Can you post photos of the serial numbers on the front of the frame and the bottom of the barrel. Also one of the little mark towards the back of the left side of the breech block, (that's the first of the three linked parts on the top of the gun). It's possible that this is an almost complete 1916 Navy, missing only the rear sight and toggle, and a new front sight blade.
Regards, Norm

notacatfan · 05-12-2013, 11:12 PM

Sorry, can you tell me where I would find it on the front of the frame? Easy enough on the barrel... I'll post a few more photos momentarily

notacatfan · 05-12-2013, 11:42 PM

More photos.

notacatfan · 05-13-2013, 12:58 AM

I took photos of the front of the frame - where I understand there SHOULD be a number stamped. Am I missing something?

lfid · 05-13-2013, 05:01 AM

the frame serial area is unnumbered and also does not have a typical navy spec 1916 date on the left external frame rail just in front of the sideplate - so seems like this is not the case of an original navy. note that the barrel does have the typical date on the left side of front sight base. if the bottom underlug of the slide has 80/unnumbered then it is very likely orig to barrel

it is very unusual to see a frame that is not numbered on the front flat area just below where the slide rails engage the frame rail recesses - usually these are thought to be unauthorized frames ( lunchbox specials ) - but could also be a case that some importer purchased a batch of generic frames for later merge with an assortment of the various barrel lengths available ( my guess in this case ). in that case this would seem to be 1920 series when some military parts were provided to export

also the frame unnumbered vertical area seems a bit taller than usual so could be a serial removal and then a factory or vendor reblue - looks more factory to me

orig navy sight would enhance value but also is likely a $300-500 added cost and likely still be mismatched as would the breechblock asy and middle toggle - breechblocks on the orig navys also have the navy crown proof

if someone had a spare nice orig toggle to add and wanted a luger shooter this would be a very presentable shooter and lots more orig than a fake navy

Bill

alanint · 05-13-2013, 08:35 AM

The very marked line across the front of the frame and the lack of a gradual radius at this spot would indicate that the original frame serial number has been ground off.

notacatfan · 05-13-2013, 08:59 AM

It is gradual - not a straight line, unfortunately, the flash on the metal makes it look like an abrupt edge.

Norme · 05-13-2013, 09:50 AM

Hi Amy, The absence of a frame serial number and that commercial proof on the breech block are disappointing. It looks like the only parts that are from a 1916 Navy are the barrel, receiver and the large flanged rear toggle pin. Also, I am not sure if selling a gun with an unnumbered frame is strictly legal. Does anyone know?
Regards, Norm

SIGP2101 · 05-13-2013, 10:56 AM

It is is obvious that frame serial # has been grind off as well as rear site has been grind modified.
Also V notch has been modified to U notch or uneven square notch, with front inverted V who ever tried to improve sights and use her as shooter didn't do it right.

John Sabato · 05-13-2013, 11:32 AM

Amy, please check your private messages using the link at the top right corner of this webpage. Thanks.

notacatfan · 05-13-2013, 01:17 PM

John et al.,

Thanks so much for the input (I read the private message). I will be stripping the frame and selling everything BUT the frame itself. Rather ironic, really. I've been in law enforcement and corrections for 14 years (obviously not an ATF agent though). Neither my father nor I would be interested in dealing with a potentially illegal weapon.

Thanks again.

05-11-2013, 01:19 AM	#1
notacatfan User Join Date: May 2013 Posts: 10 Thanks: 7 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Help - What's it worth? My dad passed away last month; however, before he passed he asked me to take all of his guns (Mom's not comfortable w/firearms). Among his collection is a 1916 Luger, but I've received differing opinions on its value. Long story short - this belonged to either my dad's grandfather or uncle. It's a 9mm, has "Germany" stamped on the bottom of the barrel, "11" stamped in a couple places and "5980" stamped elsewhere. One individual informed me it was worth about $500; another person said between $1500 and $2000. Basically, I'm trying to decide whether or not I should sell it or keep it in the family. Expertise is appreciated!

05-11-2013, 01:25 AM	#2
notacatfan User Join Date: May 2013 Posts: 10 Thanks: 7 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Photos of the 1916 Luger ...and more available... Attached Thumbnails

05-11-2013, 10:28 AM	#4
notacatfan User Join Date: May 2013 Posts: 10 Thanks: 7 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Additional photos Perhaps this will help Attached Thumbnails

05-11-2013, 04:12 PM	#6
Ron Smith User Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Orygun Posts: 4,243 Thanks: 118 Thanked 245 Times in 150 Posts	I pretty much agree with Bill. The Navy parts bring pretty good money. I would call it a high shooter grade as it is. $1200 would be a maximum I would expect, but I think it's worth that to the right buyer. If you sold it to a dealer or parts vendor they would offer you much less, and would make much more. Ron __________________ I Still Need DWM side plate #49... if anyone runs across a nice one. What ~Rudyard Kipling~ said...

05-12-2013, 12:42 AM	#7
padredan User Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: louisiana Now, but from the Rebublic of Texas Posts: 937 Thanks: 429 Thanked 316 Times in 182 Posts	i agree it is in the 1100 to 1200 range as a really nice shooter __________________ In this world nothing is free, except the grace of God

05-11-2013, 05:06 AM	#3
lfid Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Wichita, KS USA Posts: 453 Thanks: 573 Thanked 96 Times in 53 Posts	looks like you likely have an original matching 1916 dwm navy luger barrel + slide , and slide has a non-matching dwm toggle assembly from a commercial likely 1920s era commercial luger in the slide. caliber should be 9mm luger. germany stamp on the barrel would likely indicate a ww1 part merged into the remainder of the commercial luger the non-matching lower frame asy looks like a 1920s era commercial luger if frame parts are marked with 11 or 80 numbers that would help value if barrel bore is shiny and looks sharp edges on the rifling that would help value parts look like mostly original blue and mechanically excellent grips look maybe ww1 ish and would help if numbered inside with last two digits of the barrel serial ( ie original from the same 1916 navy ) but that is not very likely if magazine is as nice as rest of gun that would help value and any number on wood base would be interesting if matches the navy barrel ( again not likely ) assuming all the help items are "yes" Im thinking you have about value $1200 due to parts and also there should be interest for a "navy" shooter. $500 seems very low and probably a reseller or parts hunter case. overall this seems like a 6" barrel optioned 1920/23 dwm commercial import with mainly ww1 derived parts , refurbished in germany and sold by an importer in usa to post ww1 market for lugers. I think only one part like barrel or frame required the germany mark for import. some of these were upgraded in usa with longer barrels etc really nice ! shooter , semi collector value , I think good luck ! with the sale - consider placing for sale here in the forum section - after you get more opinions as to value seems to me you would want to keep it in family - esp if only collector type gun in the estate Bill

05-11-2013, 03:34 PM	#5
lfid Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Wichita, KS USA Posts: 453 Thanks: 573 Thanked 96 Times in 53 Posts	very nice original type magazine ! front edge of breechblock dings looks likely it "handled" various stovepipe or reversed empty cartridges probably after the navy slide was added - no big deal just interesting overall still in $1200 range I think - you might start at $1500 and then reduce down until sells - the for sale forum here allows reductions as time goes by - but not unpriced / auction suggest you wait until you have other member comments here Bill

05-12-2013, 08:38 AM	#8
DavidJayUden Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 4,047 Thanks: 578 Thanked 1,414 Times in 887 Posts	If It were mine I'd be looking for a Navy rear toggle link with sight...THEN you have a great shooter. dju

05-12-2013, 10:37 PM	#10
Norme Always A Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Colorado Posts: 2,414 Thanks: 224 Thanked 2,591 Times in 930 Posts	Hi Amy, A belated welcome to the forum! This gun may be worth more than you think. Can you post photos of the serial numbers on the front of the frame and the bottom of the barrel. Also one of the little mark towards the back of the left side of the breech block, (that's the first of the three linked parts on the top of the gun). It's possible that this is an almost complete 1916 Navy, missing only the rear sight and toggle, and a new front sight blade. Regards, Norm

05-12-2013, 11:12 PM	#11
notacatfan User Join Date: May 2013 Posts: 10 Thanks: 7 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Sorry, can you tell me where I would find it on the front of the frame? Easy enough on the barrel... I'll post a few more photos momentarily

05-12-2013, 11:42 PM	#12
notacatfan User Join Date: May 2013 Posts: 10 Thanks: 7 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Additional photos (2) More photos. Attached Thumbnails

05-13-2013, 12:58 AM	#13
notacatfan User Join Date: May 2013 Posts: 10 Thanks: 7 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	No serial #? I took photos of the front of the frame - where I understand there SHOULD be a number stamped. Am I missing something? Attached Thumbnails

05-13-2013, 05:01 AM	#14
lfid Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Wichita, KS USA Posts: 453 Thanks: 573 Thanked 96 Times in 53 Posts	the frame serial area is unnumbered and also does not have a typical navy spec 1916 date on the left external frame rail just in front of the sideplate - so seems like this is not the case of an original navy. note that the barrel does have the typical date on the left side of front sight base. if the bottom underlug of the slide has 80/unnumbered then it is very likely orig to barrel it is very unusual to see a frame that is not numbered on the front flat area just below where the slide rails engage the frame rail recesses - usually these are thought to be unauthorized frames ( lunchbox specials ) - but could also be a case that some importer purchased a batch of generic frames for later merge with an assortment of the various barrel lengths available ( my guess in this case ). in that case this would seem to be 1920 series when some military parts were provided to export also the frame unnumbered vertical area seems a bit taller than usual so could be a serial removal and then a factory or vendor reblue - looks more factory to me orig navy sight would enhance value but also is likely a $300-500 added cost and likely still be mismatched as would the breechblock asy and middle toggle - breechblocks on the orig navys also have the navy crown proof if someone had a spare nice orig toggle to add and wanted a luger shooter this would be a very presentable shooter and lots more orig than a fake navy Bill

05-13-2013, 08:35 AM	#15
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,916 Times in 1,192 Posts	The very marked line across the front of the frame and the lack of a gradual radius at this spot would indicate that the original frame serial number has been ground off.

05-13-2013, 08:59 AM	#16
notacatfan User Join Date: May 2013 Posts: 10 Thanks: 7 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	It is gradual - not a straight line, unfortunately, the flash on the metal makes it look like an abrupt edge.

05-13-2013, 09:50 AM	#17
Norme Always A Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Colorado Posts: 2,414 Thanks: 224 Thanked 2,591 Times in 930 Posts	Hi Amy, The absence of a frame serial number and that commercial proof on the breech block are disappointing. It looks like the only parts that are from a 1916 Navy are the barrel, receiver and the large flanged rear toggle pin. Also, I am not sure if selling a gun with an unnumbered frame is strictly legal. Does anyone know? Regards, Norm

05-13-2013, 10:56 AM	#18
SIGP2101 User Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Canada Posts: 256 Thanks: 74 Thanked 67 Times in 32 Posts	It is is obvious that frame serial # has been grind off as well as rear site has been grind modified. Also V notch has been modified to U notch or uneven square notch, with front inverted V who ever tried to improve sights and use her as shooter didn't do it right.

05-13-2013, 11:32 AM	#19
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,150 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	Amy, please check your private messages using the link at the top right corner of this webpage. Thanks. __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

05-13-2013, 01:17 PM	#20
notacatfan User Join Date: May 2013 Posts: 10 Thanks: 7 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	John et al., Thanks so much for the input (I read the private message). I will be stripping the frame and selling everything BUT the frame itself. Rather ironic, really. I've been in law enforcement and corrections for 14 years (obviously not an ATF agent though). Neither my father nor I would be interested in dealing with a potentially illegal weapon. Thanks again.