Odd BBLs From Numrich - Page 2

sheepherder · 10-19-2014, 08:17 PM

Continuing to mill the screw-on front sight band + base...

John Sabato · 10-20-2014, 09:26 AM

Rich, I don't have any references with me in this new work location, but I do recall that the front sight base for a Navy is approximately 0.10 INCHES taller...

sheepherder · 10-20-2014, 11:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Sabato

Rich, I don't have any references with me in this new work location, but I do recall that the front sight base for a Navy is approximately 0.10 INCHES taller...

John, those LP-08 prints I mailed to you show the Artillery front sight base height - Do you know if the Navy is the same???

I'm thinking of making my own rear toggle-mounted sight, so my actual front sight base height may be altogether different anyway...

John Sabato · 10-20-2014, 02:09 PM

Sorry Rich, the 0.10 inch measurement increase (from memory) is the best info I have available, but my best guess is that the Navy and Artillery do NOT have the same height front sight base.... but of course, I have been wrong before!

Perhaps someone who owns a Navy Luger can use a digital caliper and measure the distance from the bottom of the barrel to the flat top of the front sight base and post it in this thread...

...and while that "someone" is at it, someone (even the same person) could do the same with a standard 4" barrel so (and we) would all know the difference in height....

sheepherder · 10-20-2014, 11:05 PM

Here's a partial screengrab of the P-08 and LP-08 front sight bases...Measurements are from the centerline for base height...

John Sabato · 10-21-2014, 08:46 AM

Ok... according to the prints the top of the front sight base on a standard P.08 is 10mm from the bore centerline. On the artillery model print, the distance is 10.4mm plus 1.6mm or 12mm. That 2mm difference is 0.0787402 inches.

I would recommend you go with 2.5 to 3mm higher than the standard and then determine your requirements by using temporary front sights (a headless stud filed flat on top inserted into a threaded hole in the front sight base that will be covered by the sight dovetail) to experiment and find the point of impact. Once you know the ballpark for the front sight height, it will be a lot easier to extrapolate the correct base height for your custom barrel...

sheepherder · 10-21-2014, 09:59 AM

I enlarged Ed's Navy pic to life-size, confirmed that the front sight base band was 15mm and got a measurement of 5mm for the sight base height, measured from the band...

That would make it 12.5mm from the bore centerline...Compared to the 12mm LP-08 print dimension...Approximately...

Not very scientific, but there is a dearth of Navy Lugers to measure...

BTW: Both P-08 and LP-08 show a 15mm diameter front sight base band measurement...

The blade height is not terribly important, as I make my blades equal to the rear sight height. In this case, I haven't decided on a rear sight...Micro seems to be OOB...

I'd just like the front sight base height to be similar in profile to the 6" Navy barrel base...

Curss · 10-21-2014, 10:22 AM

Sheepherder, is this gonna be a custom target luger?

sheepherder · 10-21-2014, 05:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Curss

Sheepherder, is this gonna be a custom target luger?

No. Just an exercise in machining techniques.

Edit: I do have a spare rear toggle. I'm thinking of installing an adjustable rear sight [think Micro] in an enclosure inletted & screwed to the toggle. It will be much wider than a Navy sight but hopefully the 'ears' of the enclosure will resemble the Navy in profile. Instead of a button there will be a hole for the windage adjustment. Looking at suitable sights now.

m1903a3 · 10-21-2014, 06:47 PM

Since I have plenty of Navy lugers I measured a half dozen of my P.04s and came up with a 15mm diameter of the base band and 19.5mm from the bottom of the band to the top of the flat. Subtracting half the diameter (7.5) that makes it 12mm from centerline to the top of the flat. I measured my only lP08 and got the same result, which matches the lP08 drawing.

Putting my P.04s nose to nose with the lP08 confirms they have the same base height for the front sight.

Now for the interesting part: I have two P.08s. One is a mint 1918 Army P.08 and the other one is a rare Navy contract P.08 from the Navy's 1913 contract for 150 P.08 from DWM.

Both P.08s have the same 15mm band diameter as my lP08 and P.04s. However, they both are 17mm from the bottom of the band to the top of the flat. That translates to 9.5mm from the center to the top of the flat, not 10mm as shown on the print!!

sheepherder · 10-21-2014, 08:10 PM

Thanks Mike!

ARGH!!!

I got the front sight band milled down to .630" dia rough cuts with the 3/8" end mill [shown below], and I can't find my 1/8" long flute end mill!!!

I had to order a new one. Take a couple days to get here.

sheepherder · 10-26-2014, 09:17 AM

If you look at the pic of the rotary indexing head in pic # 32 above, you'll notice little shims between the jaws and the M16 barrel stub I'm using as a mandrel. That's because the M16 barrel OD is not concentric with the bore. I have a small 3-jaw chuck that is centered on the indexing head, but that gets thrown all out of whack with an eccentric workpiece.

The stub was .012" off center. Trying to figure out how much shimming is needed at the two 'low' jaws to get it centered is a royal PITA. I spent an hour one night and another hour the next morning and finally got it within .002". I decided that was 'close enough'.

I just got in a small 4-jaw chuck for the indexing head (I have a 6" 4-jaw for the lathe) that will make this job much easier/quicker in the future. Lot easier when the other jaws aren't moving when you shim one of them.

sheepherder · 10-30-2014, 11:02 AM

Got the 4-jaw indexing head chuck mounted - works great! (Pic didn't turn out).

Completed rotary milling the front sight band with 1/8" long end mill.

Faced off muzzle, cut crown. Mounted front sight band on barrel; mounted barrel on barrel extension ['receiver'] for pics. Also made up a special 'keyhole' spanner for mounting/removing the front sight band. Thread is 1/2" x 28tpi, same as M16/AR-15 barrel/flash hider.

Hard to photograph bright shiny objects in the shop.

Olle · 11-01-2014, 12:10 AM

Rich,

What kind of tool do you use for the crown? I have tried to grind HSS bits for crowning and other chamfering operations, but have never really been able to come up with anything that makes a clean, chatter free cut.

sheepherder · 11-01-2014, 08:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Olle

Rich,

What kind of tool do you use for the crown? I have tried to grind HSS bits for crowning and other chamfering operations, but have never really been able to come up with anything that makes a clean, chatter free cut.

Brownell's sells a curved lathe tool bit that isn't too bad for a curved tube end. I have 30º/45º/60º 'chamfering cutters' [countersinks] that I use to break the sharp bore edge and blend in the lands & grooves. (I also have tried them for cutting feed ramps; they work pretty well for that too). I'm pretty slack on 'rounding off' the end of thin barrels. The flat squared-off end looks pretty nice to me.

Edit: I just realized which barrel this is. Since it has a threaded-on front sight base, it's not rounded at all. I left it 'squared' and just broke the sharp bore edges with a 45º chamfering tool.

Olle · 11-01-2014, 08:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sheepherder

Brownell's sells a curved lathe tool bit that isn't too bad for a curved tube end. I have 30º/45º/60º 'chamfering cutters' [countersinks] that I use to break the sharp bore edge and blend in the lands & grooves. (I also have tried them for cutting feed ramps; they work pretty well for that too). I'm pretty slack on 'rounding off' the end of thin barrels. The flat squared-off end looks pretty nice to me.

Edit: I just realized which barrel this is. Since it has a threaded-on front sight base, it's not rounded at all. I left it 'squared' and just broke the sharp bore edges with a 45º chamfering tool.

I looked at Brownell's cutter, and the complex grinding explains why I haven't been able to make one...

I haven't had much luck with countersinks of any kind, they just shatter at any RPM. My only salvation is a crowning tool set (also from Brownells), but I would like to come up with something that works in the lathe... I hate to buy tools I can make, so I might try and grind a short miniature boring bar before I cave in and order the cutter.

sheepherder · 11-01-2014, 09:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Olle

I haven't had much luck with countersinks of any kind, they just shatter at any RPM.

I run at low RPM (like 160rpm I think) and use 5 or 6 flute 'chamfering cutters' from Travers. I have never had a chamfering cutter/countersink shatter. (You can't use woodworking countersinks). I turn the barrel in the lathe chuck and use a Jacob's chuck in my tailstock to feed the 'chamfering cutter' in. I eyeball it until the groove is cut to the bottom.

I've seen multi-angle crowns, rebated crowns, and odd angle crowns but really, is all that necessary??? I'm a simple person, my tools are simple, my work is as simple as I can make it.

sheepherder · 11-10-2014, 05:53 PM

An unexpected occurrence...

The 'winner' of the auction for the 8" Numrich barrel offered the barrel to me, and of course I accepted.

Now I'm somewhat at a loss...It's 30 cal, and I don't have a 30 cal artillery Luger, so I could go that way (I have a cut-down Luger artillery barrel with intact rear sight base that I could bore out and sleeve over the Numrich barrel)...Or I could use it to make a 30 cal Walther 'artillery P-38'...

I bought two 30 cal 'pulls' to use for 30 cal barrel replacements [Win M-70 & Rem M700] so I don't really need to use it for a 'blank'...

I already have a 13" 30 cal barrel ready to turn into a Luger 'Buntline', so I don't need it for that...

I've kind of run out of WW II pistols to turn into artillery whatevers...

How best to make use of this windfall???...

sheepherder · 12-04-2014, 04:40 PM

Continuing with the 6" 30 cal barrel...To the rear!

This will hopefully be the last 2-cut extractor notch I do; I'm going to try grinding an oversize Woodruff keyway cutter to Luger dimensions...

This is the second time I've cut the feed ramp this way, and I'm delighted at how nice it comes out...

sheepherder · 12-06-2014, 09:46 PM

While I had all the tools, cutters, fixtures, and notes out and still firmly fixed in my mind, I did a 2nd 6 inch 30 cal Luger barrel extractor notch and feed ramp...

I have a 3rd 6 inch barrel in 9mm that needs notching & ramping, but enough of the pics...

I'm starting to get the hang of it now...

10-19-2014, 08:17 PM	#21
sheepherder Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: ...on the 'ol Erie Canal... Posts: 8,182 Thanks: 1,398 Thanked 4,440 Times in 2,328 Posts	Continuing to mill the screw-on front sight band + base... Attached Thumbnails __________________ I like my coffee the way I like my women... ...Cold and bitter... Last edited by sheepherder; 10-27-2014 at 07:24 PM.

10-20-2014, 09:26 AM	#22
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,150 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	Rich, I don't have any references with me in this new work location, but I do recall that the front sight base for a Navy is approximately 0.10 INCHES taller... __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

10-20-2014, 02:09 PM	#24
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,150 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	Sorry Rich, the 0.10 inch measurement increase (from memory) is the best info I have available, but my best guess is that the Navy and Artillery do NOT have the same height front sight base.... but of course, I have been wrong before! Perhaps someone who owns a Navy Luger can use a digital caliper and measure the distance from the bottom of the barrel to the flat top of the front sight base and post it in this thread... ...and while that "someone" is at it, someone (even the same person) could do the same with a standard 4" barrel so (and we) would all know the difference in height.... __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

10-20-2014, 11:05 PM	#25
sheepherder Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: ...on the 'ol Erie Canal... Posts: 8,182 Thanks: 1,398 Thanked 4,440 Times in 2,328 Posts	Here's a partial screengrab of the P-08 and LP-08 front sight bases...Measurements are from the centerline for base height... Attached Thumbnails __________________ I like my coffee the way I like my women... ...Cold and bitter...

10-21-2014, 08:46 AM	#26
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,150 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	Ok... according to the prints the top of the front sight base on a standard P.08 is 10mm from the bore centerline. On the artillery model print, the distance is 10.4mm plus 1.6mm or 12mm. That 2mm difference is 0.0787402 inches. I would recommend you go with 2.5 to 3mm higher than the standard and then determine your requirements by using temporary front sights (a headless stud filed flat on top inserted into a threaded hole in the front sight base that will be covered by the sight dovetail) to experiment and find the point of impact. Once you know the ballpark for the front sight height, it will be a lot easier to extrapolate the correct base height for your custom barrel... __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

10-21-2014, 09:59 AM	#27
sheepherder Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: ...on the 'ol Erie Canal... Posts: 8,182 Thanks: 1,398 Thanked 4,440 Times in 2,328 Posts	I enlarged Ed's Navy pic to life-size, confirmed that the front sight base band was 15mm and got a measurement of 5mm for the sight base height, measured from the band... That would make it 12.5mm from the bore centerline...Compared to the 12mm LP-08 print dimension...Approximately... Not very scientific, but there is a dearth of Navy Lugers to measure... BTW: Both P-08 and LP-08 show a 15mm diameter front sight base band measurement... The blade height is not terribly important, as I make my blades equal to the rear sight height. In this case, I haven't decided on a rear sight...Micro seems to be OOB... I'd just like the front sight base height to be similar in profile to the 6" Navy barrel base... __________________ I like my coffee the way I like my women... ...Cold and bitter...

10-21-2014, 10:22 AM	#28
Curss User Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 303 Thanks: 304 Thanked 98 Times in 75 Posts	Sheepherder, is this gonna be a custom target luger? __________________ -Chris

10-21-2014, 06:47 PM	#30
m1903a3 User Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Virginia Posts: 197 Thanks: 26 Thanked 315 Times in 112 Posts	Since I have plenty of Navy lugers I measured a half dozen of my P.04s and came up with a 15mm diameter of the base band and 19.5mm from the bottom of the band to the top of the flat. Subtracting half the diameter (7.5) that makes it 12mm from centerline to the top of the flat. I measured my only lP08 and got the same result, which matches the lP08 drawing. Putting my P.04s nose to nose with the lP08 confirms they have the same base height for the front sight. Now for the interesting part: I have two P.08s. One is a mint 1918 Army P.08 and the other one is a rare Navy contract P.08 from the Navy's 1913 contract for 150 P.08 from DWM. Both P.08s have the same 15mm band diameter as my lP08 and P.04s. However, they both are 17mm from the bottom of the band to the top of the flat. That translates to 9.5mm from the center to the top of the flat, not 10mm as shown on the print!! __________________ - Mike Life member: NRA, OVMS, VGCA Member: NAPCA, N-SSA(Veteran) Si vis pacem, para bellum

10-21-2014, 08:10 PM	#31
sheepherder Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: ...on the 'ol Erie Canal... Posts: 8,182 Thanks: 1,398 Thanked 4,440 Times in 2,328 Posts	Thanks Mike! ARGH!!! I got the front sight band milled down to .630" dia rough cuts with the 3/8" end mill [shown below], and I can't find my 1/8" long flute end mill!!! I had to order a new one. Take a couple days to get here. Attached Thumbnails __________________ I like my coffee the way I like my women... ...Cold and bitter... Last edited by sheepherder; 10-22-2014 at 03:54 PM.

10-26-2014, 09:17 AM	#32
sheepherder Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: ...on the 'ol Erie Canal... Posts: 8,182 Thanks: 1,398 Thanked 4,440 Times in 2,328 Posts	If you look at the pic of the rotary indexing head in pic # 32 above, you'll notice little shims between the jaws and the M16 barrel stub I'm using as a mandrel. That's because the M16 barrel OD is not concentric with the bore. I have a small 3-jaw chuck that is centered on the indexing head, but that gets thrown all out of whack with an eccentric workpiece. The stub was .012" off center. Trying to figure out how much shimming is needed at the two 'low' jaws to get it centered is a royal PITA. I spent an hour one night and another hour the next morning and finally got it within .002". I decided that was 'close enough'. I just got in a small 4-jaw chuck for the indexing head (I have a 6" 4-jaw for the lathe) that will make this job much easier/quicker in the future. Lot easier when the other jaws aren't moving when you shim one of them. Attached Images __________________ I like my coffee the way I like my women... ...Cold and bitter...

10-30-2014, 11:02 AM	#33
sheepherder Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: ...on the 'ol Erie Canal... Posts: 8,182 Thanks: 1,398 Thanked 4,440 Times in 2,328 Posts	Got the 4-jaw indexing head chuck mounted - works great! (Pic didn't turn out). Completed rotary milling the front sight band with 1/8" long end mill. Faced off muzzle, cut crown. Mounted front sight band on barrel; mounted barrel on barrel extension ['receiver'] for pics. Also made up a special 'keyhole' spanner for mounting/removing the front sight band. Thread is 1/2" x 28tpi, same as M16/AR-15 barrel/flash hider. Hard to photograph bright shiny objects in the shop. Attached Thumbnails __________________ I like my coffee the way I like my women... ...Cold and bitter...

11-01-2014, 12:10 AM	#34
Olle User Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Tennessee Posts: 1,149 Thanks: 159 Thanked 663 Times in 318 Posts	Rich, What kind of tool do you use for the crown? I have tried to grind HSS bits for crowning and other chamfering operations, but have never really been able to come up with anything that makes a clean, chatter free cut.

11-10-2014, 05:53 PM	#38
sheepherder Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: ...on the 'ol Erie Canal... Posts: 8,182 Thanks: 1,398 Thanked 4,440 Times in 2,328 Posts	An unexpected occurrence... The 'winner' of the auction for the 8" Numrich barrel offered the barrel to me, and of course I accepted. Now I'm somewhat at a loss...It's 30 cal, and I don't have a 30 cal artillery Luger, so I could go that way (I have a cut-down Luger artillery barrel with intact rear sight base that I could bore out and sleeve over the Numrich barrel)...Or I could use it to make a 30 cal Walther 'artillery P-38'... I bought two 30 cal 'pulls' to use for 30 cal barrel replacements [Win M-70 & Rem M700] so I don't really need to use it for a 'blank'... I already have a 13" 30 cal barrel ready to turn into a Luger 'Buntline', so I don't need it for that... I've kind of run out of WW II pistols to turn into artillery whatevers... How best to make use of this windfall???... Attached Thumbnails __________________ I like my coffee the way I like my women... ...Cold and bitter...

12-04-2014, 04:40 PM	#39
sheepherder Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: ...on the 'ol Erie Canal... Posts: 8,182 Thanks: 1,398 Thanked 4,440 Times in 2,328 Posts	Continuing with the 6" 30 cal barrel...To the rear! This will hopefully be the last 2-cut extractor notch I do; I'm going to try grinding an oversize Woodruff keyway cutter to Luger dimensions... This is the second time I've cut the feed ramp this way, and I'm delighted at how nice it comes out... Attached Thumbnails __________________ I like my coffee the way I like my women... ...Cold and bitter... Last edited by sheepherder; 12-06-2014 at 02:25 PM.

12-06-2014, 09:46 PM	#40
sheepherder Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: ...on the 'ol Erie Canal... Posts: 8,182 Thanks: 1,398 Thanked 4,440 Times in 2,328 Posts	While I had all the tools, cutters, fixtures, and notes out and still firmly fixed in my mind, I did a 2nd 6 inch 30 cal Luger barrel extractor notch and feed ramp... I have a 3rd 6 inch barrel in 9mm that needs notching & ramping, but enough of the pics... I'm starting to get the hang of it now... Attached Thumbnails __________________ I like my coffee the way I like my women... ...Cold and bitter...