"No more Lugers"

This is some more thoughts to the thread below and I just wanted to bring it back to the top. Concerning the figures given by Walter and the 4 million plus pistols destroyed by the allies after WWI. This is a tough number to accept as it would indicate that if all of the 1 million plus Lugers that were made for the imperial German Army had been confiscated (and I could only believe a much smaller number had survived and were turned in)then the Luger composed about 1 fourth of the total service pistols used. This low percentage simply does not stand up to known facts about alternative pistol production during the first world war and that would include Reichs Revolver use which I could not believe would have exceeded a few hundred thousand. Also one must consider the numbers stated in Jan Still's work on Weimar Lugers, which basically states that as many as 100,000 to 150,000 combined military and police used and stored Lugers were on hand during the Weimar period and hence all of these would have also seen Third Reich use. I believe that from personal observations of availability of Imperial era Lugers that show Weimar markings and/or modifications that Still's numbers are probably correct. As to P.38 use in WWII, one must understand that large quanities of P38's did not reach the field until 1942-1943.

I doubt that the total number of P.38's in service surpassed the number of Lugers in service before some point in 1944...and then only marginally. I have never found any evidence that P.38 were considered to be priority issue over Lugers in front line units...photos show that the premier Army, SS and Luft. Paratroop units were using a lot of Lugers into the last days of the war.

[Patrick]

Lugers were arsenal stored during WWII, which is why so many were captured by the Rudssians. All units preferred the P 38. Although the Waffen-SS was considered by many to be elite, the Wehrmacht did not give it preferential treatment and considered it to be poorly trained.The SS was not part of the Wehrmqcht establishjment and was responsible for its own weapons procurement. Thus, the SS often had to make do with what the Wehrmacht no longer needed. It was only later in the war that the SS got first pick of the newly issued G 43 rifles and other equipment. The SS concentration camp guards (the Totenkopf units) were issued with Lugers and did not get the P 38 as they were not front-line troops.The Luger was essentially a WWI weapon.

Patrick, I don't want to beat a dead horse, but I am interested as to why opinions and perhaps even information seem to be so conflicting on P.08 use in WWII. I can only reference what I have observed in many photos (perhaps around 4000-5000). The GrossDeuschland division, probably the premier Army unit of WWII was carring a high percentage of Luger pistols well into late 1944, this can be born out in many photos that I have. I agree with your overview of W-SS arms issue and feel that for this very reason that the W-SS did in fact get a high percentage of 1941 and 42 made Lugers ( I have seen quite a few well documented Vet obtained SS pedigree byf's) I know that this association is often over stated to the point of having become a joke among collectors, however there is a bit more than a kernal of truth to the byf/SS connection. As far as Lugers being stored, I would ask what percentage or quantity do you believe were put into storage during the war? I believe that there some numbers of almost every type of pistol that were never issued and held in reserve stocks or just did not make it into soldier hands due to logistic gliches, this also applies to k98k's MG-42's etc.. but my understanding is that Germany never had enough small arms to warehouse anything firing standard service ammo in any large numbers...that is why things like last ditch 3rd series Radoms were made until the plants were overrun. As far as what the Russians siezed, I have no knowledge of any large quantities of stored P.08s siezed by them. I have seen many more minty P.38's on the import market than Lugers. There is really no doubt in my mind that the Russian origin import P.08s that we were seeing came from massive troop captures during the last year of the war and some from perhaps Stalingrad. I respect your opinion, however I really don't think that the average German really saw much difference (life and death) between the P.38 and the Luger...most pistols spent 99.9 of the time in their holsters.

[Patrick]

I agree, the pistol is a pretty useless infantry weapon and was / is hardly ever fired in anger. Russians who regularly come to Berlin to celebrate their victory have all told the same story. They all used captured weapons. These had to be handed in after the end of hostilities. Weapons discarded by the Germans were left lying in the open and were mainly destroyed. This was also done by U.S. and British forces.The main source of stockpiled weapons was from captured German stores. East German VoPo armourers (there�´s one in my pistol club) tell me that they took over stocks of Lugers from the Russians directly from untouched Wehrmacht stores and sent them to Suhl to be reworked. The Wehrmacht maintained stores in all the occupied territories. These are a more likely source for recent exports than any other.Most experts are of the opinion that there are no genuine SS-marked weapons. Some concentration camp guards may have individually marked their Lugers with the "Totenkopf" (death�´s head).G�¶rtz believes that all Totenkopf Lugers are forgeries.I have yet to meet a German ex-serviceman who would not much prefer a P 38.During WWII the P 08 was always considered to be second rate.Most people here think that foreigners like me are who prefer the Luger are peculiar.

Patrick, Thanks for the input, I enjoy discussing this with you. I generally agree with your comments...esp. on SS marked Lugers. You are in a great position (Germany) to tap into the German Vet perspective on such maters. I too lived in Germany for some time (about 31/2 years) and had some opportunity to discuss these things with former German soldiers, I will agree with similar revelations to your own. I would however like to add a couple of points:

1. P.38 production did not really exceed Luger Production on a "by year" basis until 1943! (Up until 1941, P38s were made in little more than troop trial quantities and in 1942 P.38 production almost tied with Luger production for the same year)

2. While many/most German soldiers may have preferred P.38s to Lugers...they used what they were issued or could scrounge and until some point in 1944 this would have been primarily P.08s.

3. Most Field Grade (Maj. and above) German Officers (many carried 9mm and many carried 7.65, most owned both I believe and it depended on the combat neccessity etc...) carried Lugers over P.38. I think this was due to the fact that they were comfortable with Lugers and already owned one.

Just a personal note, of the four main 9mm German WWII pistols, from a strictly combat perspective, I prefer the Radom to the others.

I also appreciate your knowledge on the VOPO/ East German reworks and have benifited from your postings on these over the months/years. Thanks

Hi Patrik and BCC!


A little input on the handgun situation in the German Army in April 1945.

I have found this interesting note in a book about Jagd Geschwadern (Fighter Wings) 54 and 26. It is from the service record book of the German fighter pilot, Horst Trautvetter.


â??II./J.G â?�SCHLAGETERâ?� Nr. 26


7. S t a f f e l


Bescheinigung.

Die Staffel bescheinigt hier

mit, daÃ?? der

Gefr. T r a u t v e t t e r

�´�´�´�´�´�´�´�´�´�´�´�´�´�´�´�´�´�´ �´�´�´�´�´�´�´�´�´�´�´

nicht im Besitz einer SchuÃ??-

waffe ist, da diese an des

Heer abgegeben worden sind.


Sy

Lt. und Staffelf�¼hrer.â??


Itâ??s dated 30.10.44 but the gun wasn't delivered to the Army until mid- or late April 1945. It doesn't say what type of handgun he had.


Mikael

[ViggoG]

Can anyone translate ???

We hope some multilingual

volunteer will jump in about now.

ViggoG

[Robert Wiggins]

THe litteral translation is:


"not in the possession of a firearm is, since this army were delivered on. "


Regards;

[ViggoG]

Many thanks to "R W"

for an exact trans.

ViggoG