7.65mm Test Luger questions

[Edward Tinker]

I know, beating a dead horse;

Under Ron W.'s posting it states this:

List of observed/reported US Test Lugers. Asterisks (*) indicate Test Lugers originally published in "US Test Trial Lugers" by Michael Reese


A couple of off the wall questions:

1. Where did Reese get his information on the numbers?
2. Were 1900's all in the same serial numbering scheme? i.e. did non-AE's have the same serial numbering?
3. If the above is true, have there been any serial numbers of 1900's that were NOT American Eagle stamped?

I guess what I am curious about is; is there any doubt on whether Test Lugers were in a consecutive listing? i.e the oft-time stated 6100-7100?

Ed

[Lugerdoc]

Ed, I can't quote you chapter and verse, but according to Reese and the Bannerman (repurchase these from the army) records, all of the lugers in the 6099 to 7098 range were AEs destine for the 1903 US contract. Since there were bound to be a few (up to 10%) rejects in this range, it is probably that DWM sent up to 100 AE out of this range to make up the difference. TH

[Edward Tinker]

That is interesting.

I rememeber reading what Reese said, and was wondering where he got the info? From military records, or???

The 10% theory is interesting and plausible if not likely.

Ed

[Ron Wood]

Ed,

You are asking questions the answer to which I have been seeking for well over 20 years. The U.S. Test Luger has been a vexing problem since, unlike most other contract Lugers, the contract was filled within the commercial production and not a separate serial number block. Therefore, the distinct possibility exists that commercial Lugers might be found intermixed in the â??oft time stated 6100-7100â?� serial number range.

Reese derived much of his information from military records and documentation that he reproduced in considerable detail in his book on the 1900 US Test Trial Lugers. The critical information that he does not show in his book is the documentation that substantiates the 6100-7100 range! Thus we have the nebulous, and possibly mythical, â??rangeâ?�.

I personally have considerable doubt that the Test Lugers were consecutively numbered. I have been continuing to compile serial numbers of Lugers having Test Trial characteristics from a number of sources, to include lists from notable individuals such as Harry Jones and Sam Costanzo. I am nearly ready to publish an updated list of observed serial numbers, which consists of 17 examples â??below the rangeâ?�, 302 examples within the publicized range of 6100-7100, and 98 examples â??above the rangeâ?�. With that many out of range examples, I have little confidence in 100 or any other number of replacement Lugers. In fact, with the quality control exercised by DWM, I doubt that there were any rejects and/or replacements. I think that any â??non-within rangeâ?� pieces are strictly the result of filling the contract with non-sequential serial numbers.

I have been earnestly seeking any examples within this grouping that can definitely be identified as commercial pieces. I found 4 possible examples, one of which I eliminated this past weekend. Two of the others I doubt that I will have a chance to observe. But the remaining fourth example I hope to examine and measure within a month or two, and hopefully establish that there were indeed commercial examples within the sacred 6100-7100 range.

This has been a long and exhaustive process, and in all honesty I really doubt that I will ever get it resolved. But I will try, possibly for another 20 years, to attempt to construct the history of the U.S. Test Trial Lugers from empirical data.

[Edward Tinker]

Thanks Ron and Tom,

I am curious for obvious reasons, but the Test Lugers have always fascinated me.

I also wonder if the luger is "within" the range, that the person never considers to question the commerical marking or germany marking?

If ALL guns coming into or out of Germany were required to be marked "germany" (I wonder where I could look this up), then finding lugers without the germany has to mean something???

Ed

[Lugerdoc]

Ron, Have you run into any "Germany" marked or none AE lugers in the 6100 to 7100 range. In a conversation with Mike years ago, he told me that the only documented test serials that he found in the national archives were #6167, 6361,6541, 6601 and 6602 sent to 7th Calvalry in Cuba (see page 34 of his book). Most of the other serial that we base the range on are from the Bannerman records (see page 44 of "US Martial & Collectors Arms" by Steven Fuller). He suggest that the range should be 5800 to 7800 none consecutive and shows #6167-6196, 6282, 6361-7108 and 7147. This does not include the 50 7.65mm AEs returned to DWM in exchange for 9mm M1902s #22401-22450 which were then fitted with the Powell Cartridge Counter grips by the Springfield Armoury. He also mentions a couple of 9mm prototypes #10030B and 10060 (B?) which probably had different length barrels. TH

[Ron Wood]

Tom,

Those are the lines of investigation I am pursuing. I have a record of one Luger in the 6100-7100 range that is GERMANY marked. That record came to me third-handed so I do not know if it has the AE crest, if it is a commercial, or if it may be a test piece that made its way to Germany and then was stamped and re-imported. This is a possibility, since I know of one very early AE in the 2100 range that had gone to Switzerland and had been modified with the â??Uâ?� shaped rear sight and marked with the Swiss cross on the rear toggle link. So Lugers intended for the American market have made it back and forth across the puddle on more than one occasion. As I stated in my reply to Edâ??s post, I have had 4 â??possibleâ?� commercials reported in the 6100-7100 range, one of which I have eliminated, and another without a crest and bearing a commercial proof that I hope to put a micrometer on in the near future.

As soon as I have a chance to do a bit more confirmation, I will post an updated version of my serial number lists, probably around May. As it stands now, the reported and observed serial number range runs from 5987 to 7990. I totally agree with Steven Fuller that the 1900 U.S. Test Trial Lugers were not consecutively serial numbered and extended over a much larger range than the published, but undocumented, 6100-7100 range.

My hunt for Test Luger data is confounded by the fact that I canâ??t personally inspect each piece. In many cases I have to rely on what has been observed and reported by others, sometimes being passed through a couple of people before it gets to me. A very real possibility exists that some of the reported pieces are actually commercial, but were reported as test pieces simply because they fell into the â??acceptedâ?� range. To make matters worse, one reported example was first observed without a crest, and when seen on a later occasion had the crest! Quite possibly a commercial piece that someone thought was â??wrongâ?� or a deliberate attempt to boost it. So I follow up on every lead that I can and try to verify that the piece being reported has the characteristics of a test piece, or may be that elusive commercial example(s) that I suspect exists. If anyone out there has one, please let me know!!!

I would strongly suspect that the 50 returned pieces (which were specified that they had to be in good condition) were turned over to Hans Tauscher and subsequently sold to a US retailer for re-sale. So some of them are probably still around in collections and may be on my listâ?¦there is no way to tell.

The 9mm prototypes are documented, having been personally presented by Georg Luger to the Ordnance Board at Springfield Armory on 21 May 1903. Serial #10030B had a barrel length of 120mm, and #10060B had a barrel length of 150mm.

And the search for the facts goes onâ?¦

[Edward Tinker]

I was going through books last night, reading up on 1900 AE's. I realize that Datig is considered dated, but I still like it, and don't fully give it credit due to age and errors, but don't fully discount it either. On page 68, he makes an interesting statement:




I wonder why he was adamant that they were not consecutive???

And can anyone answer the question, of what exactly "US Martial & Collectors Arms" by Steven Fuller really is? Magazine or book?

[Lugerdoc]

Steve Fuller's book is soft bound 6x9" format published in 1982, but still may be available from MARS POB 26772 San Jose, CA. 95159. The original price in 82 was $5 + $1 S&H. TH

[Ron Wood]

I do not know why Datig was adamant that they were not consecutive. By the same token, I do not know why anyone would be adamant that they WERE consecutive. I side with the non-consecutive belief and think that the exclusive 6100-7100 range has no basis.

[Pete Ebbink]

Hi Ron,

I asked Ralph Shattuck about this last year at the Reno gun show. If I recall correctly he said he had a M1900 commerical DWM with blank chamber in the # 64xx serial range in his personal collection.

Maybe a call to Ralph would confirm this...

Regards,

Pete...

[Ron Wood]

I have talked to Ralph about that piece on a couple of occasions and I will get a chance to examine it first hand in the near future.

[Edward Tinker]

ohhh, that was the surpise I was hoping you'd have