Finally, won a lot of three or four

[alvin]

Three or four, depends on how to count these...

These C&R are even cheaper than Norinco 213. Hammer $350, plus 18% BP will be $413, plus shipping, God knows, will be about $460 - $470 total cost. Averagely each one cost me about $155.

Their estimate is higher than this. I am a new player in this domain, fair price? or too high? or low? Thanks

===

Lot #2618

[sheepherder]

Originally Posted by alvin

Three or four, depends on how to count these...

fair price? or too high? or low? Thanks

Lot #2618

For machinist student, a good deal. Lots to be learned from these small-volume pistol manufacturers.

[alvin]

Looks like still bid a little bit too high. A few later lots sold slightly cheaper. But this type of thing is hard to control the cost at $25 or $50 level. Anyway, how much I can lose at this level.

Their estimated price of all Spanish lots is universally high. Most lots sold at 50% of their low estimates. Let alone those high estimates.

[DonVoigt]

Depends on what you want them for or plan to do with them- what is the objective?

The .25 Colt slide and barrel(if bore is good) will have some value alone as spares to someone.

I like .25 autos and buy them when I can't resist! My can't resist point is $100.

[alvin]

Originally Posted by DonVoigt

Depends on what you want them for or plan to do with them- what is the objective?

No objective. Pure impulsive buying.

There was a short barrel Red 9 yesterday. It's a good one. If no one wanted it, I could do $1200. But another guy took it at $1300. So I let it go. But $1300 is still being a fair price.

Two M1930s with stock were sold a little bit high today. $2750. But they have sanded stocks. Probably winner need those stocks.

That's it for today. Tomorrow is another day. I think there are lots of bargains in this session.

[sheepherder]

Originally Posted by DonVoigt

The .25 Colt slide and barrel(if bore is good) will have some value alone as spares to someone.

Slide says 32 Auto...But I have never seen ANY Colt with curved finger grooves...

I have doubts about that being a 'real' Colt/slide combo...Spanish, like Chinese, were adept at copying 'real' logos...

I'm looking thru POTW & NRA and I don't see any Colt 32 or 25 auto slide like this...

[alanint]

Spanish makers were known to rip off both the Colt and Smith and Wesson logos.

I would wager this is the case here.

[DonVoigt]

Originally Posted by alanint

Spanish makers were known to rip off both the Colt and Smith and Wesson logos.

I would wager this is the case here.

I agree,
looks good in the small picture, but Sheepherder's enlargement
tells the tale!

[alvin]

This type of gun has an advantage -- a single conehammer's cost can setup a collection. It's a trial to see how much I would love them. Never played with Ruby before.

[sheepherder]

Originally Posted by alvin

Never played with Ruby before.

I had a Spanish revolver back in the 70's; it was an absolute exact copy of a S&W Model 10 (Military & Police) w/4" bbl. Very well made and although the maker used their own logo, it was in the S&W style...

I have read that the Eibar region of Spain was a hotbed of firearms activity back in the early/mid 1900's. It would have been an exciting place to be if you liked that sort of thing...

...And I do...

Edit: Here is reference I found in gun book...If based on Browning 1903, then it should disassemble like 1903...

[alvin]

Today, there was another Ruby lot slightly better. I tried $350 again, but another bidder put $375 down. So,,, it did not come.

I bet all these Spanish pistols came from the same seller. Who collected so many Spanish stuffs, looks like an author just finished his book and dumped his collection. Unless he collected each one under $100, how could he not losing money on these... whole auction session wise, each one goes $130 on average, including RIAC's commission and shipping cost.

But who knows, these pistols were cheap in 1920s, probably seller's average cost was under $100 (in today's dollar value).

[sheepherder]

Originally Posted by alvin

Unless he collected each one under $100, how could he not losing money on these.

I bet the executor of his estate would be thrilled to get $50 each for his collection. I know my niece will, and I'm leaving her an auction catalog and instructions to just dump all my pistols in a box and mail it to RIAC.

[Olle]

Originally Posted by alanint

Spanish makers were known to rip off both the Colt and Smith and Wesson logos.

I would wager this is the case here.

A friend of mine has a pocket sized Ruby with the Colt logo and "US PROPERTY" stamp. He says he believes it's something they imported for aviators during WWI, and I have heard others saying the same thing. Rumors?

[alanint]

Never happened.......

[John Sabato]

I concur with Alanint. Almost 55 years in the study of firearms history, and specifically WW2 weapons, and never heard any such story, or seen any documentation to that effect.

What your friend has is a Ruby ripoff Colt marked pistol and the results of a bogus US Property stamp. A great story, but that is all it is... a story, to sell the pistol at a higher price.

[alanint]

Think about it. Would the US government get involved with the issuing of a patent-infringing foreign made pistol, which is essentially a rip-off of a domestically designed firearm?

And consider that Colt was an extremely powerful and connected corporation at the time with a very cozy relationship with the US government.

[Olle]

Originally Posted by alanint

Think about it. Would the US government get involved with the issuing of a patent-infringing foreign made pistol, which is essentially a rip-off of a domestically designed firearm?

And consider that Colt was an extremely powerful and connected corporation at the time with a very cozy relationship with the US government.

No, it doesn't make a bit of sense, and if they issued an aviator pocket gun in WWI it would probably have been have been a 1903 or 1908.

My buddy knows that it's a very long shot, so he bought it at a price where he couldn't lose too much ($300, I believe). Still, you hear about this aviator gun now and then, so I wonder what it could be... or if it even exists?

BTW: Here's a few pictures. You can't really see the Colt horse and legend, but if you look closely you can see the US Property stamp on the right side.

[Olle]

Found a better picture where the left hand slide legend shows, and it says "COLT PAT: 1908". I seriously doubt that Colt patented the Ruby design, but maybe the manufacturer copied something from a Colt and tried to cover his butt by stamping it like that. Who knows.

I would lean toward a "Chinese style" knock-off (like all those strangely marked C96 copies), but the US Property stamp throws me off. It seems to be of the same age as the gun, so why would a manufacturer do that? A stamp like that is a real booster nowadays, but back then I would rather say that it would make people suspect that it was stolen from a US depot somewhere.

BTW: I know that the "Rampant Colt" has changed quite a bit through the years, so does anybody know how to date this one?

[alanint]

The "US Property" mark may have been desirable over in Europe as having better steel, better quality control and the "cachet" of "having been issued to the US armed forces". Who knows, except that it is fake.

This is nothing new:
http://www.nramuseum.org/gun-info-research/fake!.aspx

[alvin]

Originally Posted by Olle

I would lean toward a "Chinese style" knock-off (like all those strangely marked C96 copies), but the US Property stamp throws me off. It seems to be of the same age as the gun, so why would a manufacturer do that?

I would think both Colt logo and US Property stamps were added by gun maker. Tiny gun makers do not have much "moral standard" or "code of business" or something, whatever earning more doing whatever. The target market supposed to be US collector market (or European collector market?), not Asian market though. 1920 Chinese could not care less on "US Property" stamp. No such a demand. They cared a little bit on "horse brand" though, it's a sign of quality product.

After I post these three pistols in another forum, people expressed that they have seen a lot of these in storage. There were a few nicknames, "dog brand" (due to the dog-like proof stamp on the pistol), "three-piece iron". Have not played with these in the past, where did this nick name come from,,, will know soon... probably referring to its simple structure, grip frame, slide, and barrel, .. three pieces. They knew, "even Spanish bicycle transmission chain makers were making these, the quality was not higher than our small tractor repairing facility"

So, these guns also carry some interesting history in gun making.