Discussion of Fluted Firing Pin...

mrerick · 10-05-2011, 04:34 PM

Hi,

A recent purchase of a very rare 1926 dated Simson Luger discussed on the Gunboards Luger site which asked about the authenticity of the firing pin may be of interest.

It looks like at least three of our Simson Lugers (dated in 1926, and made in 1930 and 1931) all incorporate E/6 proofed and correctly serial numbered fluted firing pins. I've attached a photo of the firing pin from my sn 6010.

It looks possible that the change to the fluted firing pin design may have taken place at Simson, rather than Mauser in 1934.

Does anyone have access to documentation (including Weimar patent filings) that might confirm this earlier change to fluted firing pins?

Marc

Edward Tinker · 10-05-2011, 08:12 PM

Marc, I was busy today, will try to pull out my firing pins and look tomorrow (those are the blank spots).

These are pictures folks sent me for the book that happened to show the firing pin,
dated 1925 sn 12 (note E6 is not by sn but on flange) non-fluted
dated 1925 sn 378 nonfluted
dated 1926 sn 684 fluted
sn 701 #99 and has an eagle 6 non-fluted
sn 2014 unfluted
sn 2031 # 31 and is fluted
sn 4004 which I sold was unfluted
sn 4865 unfluted
sn 5940 unfluted
sn 6069 unfluted
sn 6923 unfluted
sn 8660 unfluted
sn 47a has 46 and Eagle 6 is fluted
sn 554a unfluted
sn 866a (Vopo w/ almost all eagle 6's everywhere) firing pin is #66 and Eagle 33 fluted
My feeling is that they came with unfluted and were replaced when the requirements changed

Ed

mrerick · 10-05-2011, 08:34 PM

If the fluting was a machining step (which it appears to be) it is certainly possible that the parts were reworked to add the fluting slots. That could explain the E/6 marking on a part that was originally shipped unfluted.

After Simson's takeover and relocation of the manufacturing tooling, modifications could have been performed on the old premises or elsewhere.

Marc

Edward Tinker · 10-09-2011, 07:51 PM

Marc above is my info on my Simson's

Stevie · 10-10-2011, 07:51 PM

Uhh..I own a beat-up 1920 dated/property marked(single date) DWM 4" P08..it has a matching numbered firingpin that's fluted.

It's one of the Weimer era guns that's obviously made from wartime parts because you can still see the reminants of a previous date..probably 1918 with the 1920 stamped right over it. Weimer dove proofed.

Whether it was built with a fluted firingpin..or had a rebuild and got it's pin fluted..I do not know?

mrerick · 10-10-2011, 09:30 PM

Ed, thanks for your posting.

Do you think it more likely that the pins were replaced, or re-worked and returned to their original firearm? I know that this would be hard to estimate without documentation of a rework program, or a set of instructions for standard actions during rework.

Since these fluted pins have E/6 markings, and they were likely done at some point after manufacture, is there a way for replacement pins to get the E/6 marking outside of the Simson factory inspections?

I'm off to re-read my reference books to see if research has already discussed this.

Stevie, that would be consistent with a rebuild program as well...

Marc

CavScoutEurope · 10-11-2011, 10:10 AM

My 1916 DWM VOPO has a fluted firing pin that has the weapon number for my Luger electro penciled on it.

Lugerdoc · 10-12-2011, 10:42 AM

CSE, That's the way the DDR force matched parts. If your FP was originally numbered, they would have XXXed it out, if not matching. TH

CavScoutEurope · 10-12-2011, 08:51 PM

I wonder if the DDR actually made their own parts for the Lugers that they had. On the parts that are obvious replacement parts all but on have no numbers on them except the firing pin.

barry · 10-12-2011, 09:06 PM

Just took down my 1925. Has a fluted fp numbered to gun. But no e/6.

mrerick · 10-12-2011, 10:16 PM

I've been searching the net, and here's an earlier discussion on this subject that is on the GunBoards Jan Still site:

http://luger.gunboards.com/showthread.php?6601-Fluted-Firing-Pin!&highlight=firing%20pin

Dwight Gruber refers to John Walter's book which states that the fluted pin was instituted starting in 1934. Other discussion speculates that it was done in relation to eliminating the gas seal "step" in the chamber.

I need to see if the step is present on my Simson sn 6010.

So, the question is, were these flute cuts added during a rebuild program, and if so where might it have been done (if Simson was out of business after 1933)?

Marc

lugerholsterrepair · 10-12-2011, 11:21 PM

"dated 1926 sn 684 fluted"

1926 was a date that saw many changes in German military design.

Lugerdoc · 10-13-2011, 09:55 AM

CSE, Yes the DDR did manufacture new replacement PO8 parts and even about 150 newly made complete lugers in the early 1950s. I still have several new unmarked DDR rear toggle links available @$50 each and a couple of used, C/N proofed or numbered ones @$40 + S&H. TH

10-05-2011, 04:34 PM	#1
mrerick Super Moderator - Patron LugerForum Life Patron Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA Posts: 3,920 Thanks: 1,377 Thanked 3,135 Times in 1,518 Posts	Discussion of Fluted Firing Pin... Hi, A recent purchase of a very rare 1926 dated Simson Luger discussed on the Gunboards Luger site which asked about the authenticity of the firing pin may be of interest. It looks like at least three of our Simson Lugers (dated in 1926, and made in 1930 and 1931) all incorporate E/6 proofed and correctly serial numbered fluted firing pins. I've attached a photo of the firing pin from my sn 6010. It looks possible that the change to the fluted firing pin design may have taken place at Simson, rather than Mauser in 1934. Does anyone have access to documentation (including Weimar patent filings) that might confirm this earlier change to fluted firing pins? Marc Attached Thumbnails __________________ Igitur si vis pacem, para bellum - - Therefore if you want peace, prepare for war.

10-05-2011, 08:34 PM	#3
mrerick Super Moderator - Patron LugerForum Life Patron Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA Posts: 3,920 Thanks: 1,377 Thanked 3,135 Times in 1,518 Posts	If the fluting was a machining step (which it appears to be) it is certainly possible that the parts were reworked to add the fluting slots. That could explain the E/6 marking on a part that was originally shipped unfluted. After Simson's takeover and relocation of the manufacturing tooling, modifications could have been performed on the old premises or elsewhere. Marc __________________ Igitur si vis pacem, para bellum - - Therefore if you want peace, prepare for war.

10-12-2011, 10:42 AM	#8
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 737 Times in 484 Posts	CSE, That's the way the DDR force matched parts. If your FP was originally numbered, they would have XXXed it out, if not matching. TH __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 lugerdoc@charter.net

10-12-2011, 10:16 PM	#11
mrerick Super Moderator - Patron LugerForum Life Patron Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA Posts: 3,920 Thanks: 1,377 Thanked 3,135 Times in 1,518 Posts	Earlier discussion I've been searching the net, and here's an earlier discussion on this subject that is on the GunBoards Jan Still site: http://luger.gunboards.com/showthread.php?6601-Fluted-Firing-Pin!&highlight=firing%20pin Dwight Gruber refers to John Walter's book which states that the fluted pin was instituted starting in 1934. Other discussion speculates that it was done in relation to eliminating the gas seal "step" in the chamber. I need to see if the step is present on my Simson sn 6010. So, the question is, were these flute cuts added during a rebuild program, and if so where might it have been done (if Simson was out of business after 1933)? Marc __________________ Igitur si vis pacem, para bellum - - Therefore if you want peace, prepare for war.

10-12-2011, 11:21 PM	#12
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,775 Thanks: 4,995 Thanked 3,133 Times in 1,439 Posts	"dated 1926 sn 684 fluted" 1926 was a date that saw many changes in German military design. __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

10-05-2011, 08:12 PM	#2
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,965 Thanks: 2,066 Thanked 4,593 Times in 2,115 Posts	Marc, I was busy today, will try to pull out my firing pins and look tomorrow (those are the blank spots). These are pictures folks sent me for the book that happened to show the firing pin, dated 1925 sn 12 (note E6 is not by sn but on flange) non-fluted dated 1925 sn 378 nonfluted dated 1926 sn 684 fluted sn 701 #99 and has an eagle 6 non-fluted sn 2014 unfluted sn 2031 # 31 and is fluted sn 4004 which I sold was unfluted sn 4865 unfluted sn 5940 unfluted sn 6069 unfluted sn 6923 unfluted sn 8660 unfluted sn 47a has 46 and Eagle 6 is fluted sn 554a unfluted sn 866a (Vopo w/ almost all eagle 6's everywhere) firing pin is #66 and Eagle 33 fluted My feeling is that they came with unfluted and were replaced when the requirements changed Ed

10-09-2011, 07:51 PM	#4
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,965 Thanks: 2,066 Thanked 4,593 Times in 2,115 Posts	Marc above is my info on my Simson's

10-10-2011, 07:51 PM	#5
Stevie User Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Ok. Posts: 212 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Uhh..I own a beat-up 1920 dated/property marked(single date) DWM 4" P08..it has a matching numbered firingpin that's fluted. It's one of the Weimer era guns that's obviously made from wartime parts because you can still see the reminants of a previous date..probably 1918 with the 1920 stamped right over it. Weimer dove proofed. Whether it was built with a fluted firingpin..or had a rebuild and got it's pin fluted..I do not know?

10-10-2011, 09:30 PM	#6
mrerick Super Moderator - Patron LugerForum Life Patron Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA Posts: 3,920 Thanks: 1,377 Thanked 3,135 Times in 1,518 Posts	Ed, thanks for your posting. Do you think it more likely that the pins were replaced, or re-worked and returned to their original firearm? I know that this would be hard to estimate without documentation of a rework program, or a set of instructions for standard actions during rework. Since these fluted pins have E/6 markings, and they were likely done at some point after manufacture, is there a way for replacement pins to get the E/6 marking outside of the Simson factory inspections? I'm off to re-read my reference books to see if research has already discussed this. Stevie, that would be consistent with a rebuild program as well... Marc __________________ Igitur si vis pacem, para bellum - - Therefore if you want peace, prepare for war.

10-11-2011, 10:10 AM	#7
CavScoutEurope User Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Virginia Posts: 86 Thanks: 102 Thanked 15 Times in 14 Posts	My 1916 DWM VOPO has a fluted firing pin that has the weapon number for my Luger electro penciled on it.

10-12-2011, 08:51 PM	#9
CavScoutEurope User Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Virginia Posts: 86 Thanks: 102 Thanked 15 Times in 14 Posts	I wonder if the DDR actually made their own parts for the Lugers that they had. On the parts that are obvious replacement parts all but on have no numbers on them except the firing pin.

10-12-2011, 09:06 PM	#10
barry User Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Kalifornia Posts: 34 Thanks: 2 Thanked 3 Times in 2 Posts	Just took down my 1925. Has a fluted fp numbered to gun. But no e/6.

10-13-2011, 09:55 AM	#13
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 737 Times in 484 Posts	CSE, Yes the DDR did manufacture new replacement PO8 parts and even about 150 newly made complete lugers in the early 1950s. I still have several new unmarked DDR rear toggle links available @$50 each and a couple of used, C/N proofed or numbered ones @$40 + S&H. TH __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 lugerdoc@charter.net