New member here in Kennesaw Ga with police rework purchase

pjm30144airborne · 07-25-2010, 06:36 PM

Hi yall. I am just getting in to lugers at 51 years of age.
I wanted to see if I got a good deal on my recent purchase at the gun show. I bought a 1917 DWM Simpson rework,
The gun is about 80% bluing little straw left. The gun is made from two guns. The take down lever, side plate, bolt and toggle are from another gun. The rest of the gun is matching #s
The barrel shows early simpson stamps, #4 and eagle over 33 with eagle PTV mark. The frame is drilled with a 6mm hole for the safety but the frame was not cut so the safety was never installed. There is a pin in the hole where the sear safety was.
It has all the imperial etc. proofs on right side
bore is excellent. I bought it from a guy with a 1938 P08 holster for 650 with holster. here are some pics. The only mark I can not identify is a lone 95 on the front grip strap. I need mags for this serial 780 if anyone has any. I have a 6530 mag I can sell or trade.

Railsplitter · 07-25-2010, 06:55 PM

Welcome to The Forum !! I don't know much about DWM / Simpson reworks so I will have to leave any critical assessment to other Forum members. That being said, from what I can see, that pistol and that holster for $650.00 ... I'm buyin' !

MFC · 07-25-2010, 07:13 PM

Patrick,
Can you show us a picture of the bottom of the mag? It could be worth $100 - $400+ alone depending on proofs and condition.

FNorm · 07-25-2010, 07:18 PM

Now ya did it! Ya went out and gotta luger! Don't you know those things are addictive? Next thing ya know you'll be looking at Krieghoffs..... LOL

FN

pjm30144airborne · 07-25-2010, 08:33 PM

Thanks guys The mag has 6530 L + and small eagle with a 03 or 63 number under but too small to Tell. It is ribbed and aluminum based.

have emailed MCNJ as he has advertised a wood based mag serial number 780 but he is not sure he wants to sell yet he has to find another period mag to replace it with.

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MFC · 07-25-2010, 09:49 PM

Patrick,
Your mag is one of the more common military mags, but still worth around $125.

pjm30144airborne · 07-25-2010, 09:54 PM

I thought so. I hope MCNJ will sell me the one with my serial number. What can I expect to pay for a wood base mag with a couple of chips ?

Don M · 07-25-2010, 10:37 PM

The barrel markings indicate this pistol was rebarrelled by the Polizeischule für Technik und Verkehr (PTV) in Berlin using a barrel purchased from Simson. This was probably done in about 1929-30 using an LP08 that previously had been used by the Prussian Landjägerei since 1920. If it has a small */D stamped on the top of the rear toggle link, it is definitely a reworked LP08. The fact that the pistol has no sear safety indicates it probably went from the PTV to a barracked Bereitschaftspolizei unit that was subsequently transferred to the military in 1934-35. I don't know what the 95 on the front grip strap means. Perhaps a good photo of it will help.

pjm30144airborne · 07-25-2010, 10:54 PM

Thanks.
No doubt it was a LP08 and has the sight relief on top front of the receiver. A picture of the front strap won't help it is just a deep stamped 95 in the middle of the strap nothing else.

Edward Tinker · 07-25-2010, 11:14 PM

I would need much better pictures to tell if it was a Sipson rework. Especially if it is mismatched; it might have some "parts" that have been made or accepted by Simson, but NOT a rework by them. That term is used anytime a dealer is unsure what they have.

I have never seen a frame drilled on a pre-ww2 luge that was not finished. In fact, a magazine safety would have the frame cut, but the frame would not be? The sideplate would be, but I can't think why the frame would be, but it is 5:15 in the morning here, so...

Ed

suum cuique · 07-25-2010, 11:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Edward Tinker

I would need much better pictures to tell if it was a Simpson rework. Especially if it is mismatched; it might have some "parts" that have been made or accepted by Simpson, but NOT a rework by them. That term is used anytime a dealer is unsure what they have.

I have never seen a frame drilled on a pre-ww2 luge that was not finished. In fact, a magazine safety would have the frame cut, but the frame would not be? The sideplate would be, but I can't think why the frame would be, but it is 5:15 in the morning here, so...

Ed

Ed,
05:15 AM already got your wakeup call?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hb6bCFoiHP4

Edward Tinker · 07-25-2010, 11:27 PM

No, thats at 3:50 and I have to be at work by 5:00

To wake up I check email and read the boards, its a 20-30 min drive over here.

ed

pjm30144airborne · 07-26-2010, 08:22 AM

I have actually bought this from a private individual not a dealer.
I have read in my reasearch on the web of several examples of police reworks that had the frame drilled but never had the safety install completed because they were in the process of removing ones all ready installed. I also read in a few pages from a book stating that simson were the only ones approved to rework the pistols after the war. Regardless it has been re barreled with 2 simson eagle over 33stamps and Police tech stamp (PTV) on the barrel with a #4 and 8,81 below that. There is no import stamp. The forward toggle link and rear toggle ling have been replaced as well as the side plate and take down lever all marked with 11 the frame receiver and all other parts are marked 80 for the serial number 780 with kirsif K below serial number. the rear toggle pivot or receiver axle pin is also stamped 80

Don M · 07-26-2010, 01:55 PM

My apologies. I realize you mentioned at the outset that it once had a sear safety. That suggests that it originally was issued to the Revierpolizei (precinct police). However, it probably subsequently got transferred to the military where the sear safety was removed. While they are not common, I have observed other instances of this and own a Luger that experienced the same thing.

Edward Tinker · 07-26-2010, 03:19 PM

Don, I am not trying to be difficult, but it is from TWO DIFFERENT GUNS ...

You can't say for sure what or why the sear safety was removed.

If one of the owners did not have the sideplate and it had a sear safety, you could see the owner taking the sear safety off, otherwise it would be all wonky.

Patrick , mismatched guns are good guesses but hard to say for sure?

Ed

Edward Tinker · 07-26-2010, 03:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pjm30144airborne

I have actually bought this from a private individual not a dealer.
I have read in my reasearch on the web of several examples of police reworks that had the frame drilled but never had the safety install completed because they were in the process of removing ones all ready installed. I also read in a few pages from a book stating that simson were the only ones approved to rework the pistols after the war. ...

yes on the simson company being the only reworkers.

NO, on the sear safeties being removed. They were never removed. Magazine safeties were removed, but not sear safeties.

SEE THE FAQ FOR FURTHER INFORMATION.

As Don stated, Simson BARRELS were used, and likely put on by the berlin police armory and not put on by Simson.

Ed

Don M · 07-26-2010, 04:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Edward Tinker

Don, I am not trying to be difficult, but it is from TWO DIFFERENT GUNS ...

Ed, of course you are!

The police did not remove sear safeties but I have seen several examples (and own one) of sear safeties that were removed from police Lugers that almost certainly saw later military service. And I'm not talking about VoPo reworks. The fact that the sideplate was replaced along with a few other parts suggests this was done when the sear safety was removed.

That being said, there is very little about this hobby that can be stated with absolute certainty and it is certainly possible that Joe Sixpack could have removed the sear safety and replaced the sideplate, takedown lever, etc. late last year.

pjm30144airborne · 07-26-2010, 04:22 PM

I appreciate all the input. This gun was purchased from the estate of a WWII vet> The guy I bought it from had other things from this estate as well.
Note: all of the second gun parts are #11 and the last owner said he only shot it never did anything to it. Who knows what the vet who brought it back may have done.
This was most likely a police pistol of some kind. The rear toggle pin is serial stamped 80 from the serial number 780 (1932 requirement) and there was once a sear safety as both holes are present. But for some reason the mag safety machining was never completed, only the hole was drilled. I have read on other forums that some sear safeties were removed by armorers during the war here is an example of the DDR (vopo) comments from another forum.

"You bring up an interesting point about the safeties on DDR reworked Lugers. Every one I have seen only has the original safety lever made operational. Any magazine or sear safeties were either removed or disconnected. Removing the Weimar period police safeties seems to be the standard protocol followed by DDR armorers when refurbishing these P.08 pistols.

I would offer the theory that it was standard operating procedure for DDR armorers to refurbish or repair these pistols with only the one safety made operational. My 1957 copy of Waffen- und GelÃ¤ndekunde does not specifically address that issue but does show only the one original safety and only indicates this safety in use.

It seems to make sense that newly manufactured parts, such as the sideplate, might leave space for the old safeties if they were still present. I would think that leaving the cutout on this sideplate would be prudent so that DDR armorers could use the sideplate to repair a pistol that still had the sear safety in place in an emergency. A field armorer in time of war might not have the equipment to remove the sear safety but could put a luger that still had one back into action with this new sideplate"

I am sure I will never know really but it makes for an interesting gun and well worth the $550.00 I paid for it.
$100.00 for the holster. I think I got a good deal.

Edward Tinker · 07-26-2010, 04:50 PM

If there is a mag safety hole, then the rest was probably re-welded and reblued. Many times you can tell, but sometimes you can't.

I'd like to see close up, clear pictures with the sideplate removed.

pjm30144airborne · 07-26-2010, 09:03 PM

When would this have happened? I have just looked under bright lights from the inside through the back side with the grips off and you can see it was welded up. So it did have a functional mag safety the finish looks original and has patina and you can not tell the weld is there from the outside!! I was wrong and am sorry. Can anyone shed light on the weld and reblue? It must have been done back in the 30's maybe when it went in to WWII?
Could they have taken off the sear safety too at that time? I have read on another forum that VOPO off both safeties off when they reworked a Luger. The grips are period but are stamped 21 (wrong serial number) and they are not broken under the safety (MILLION dollar break)

07-25-2010, 07:13 PM	#3
MFC User Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Louisiana Posts: 1,237 Thanks: 183 Thanked 281 Times in 162 Posts	Patrick, Can you show us a picture of the bottom of the mag? It could be worth $100 - $400+ alone depending on proofs and condition. __________________ Mike C.

07-25-2010, 09:49 PM	#6
MFC User Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Louisiana Posts: 1,237 Thanks: 183 Thanked 281 Times in 162 Posts	Patrick, Your mag is one of the more common military mags, but still worth around $125. __________________ Mike C.

07-25-2010, 10:37 PM	#8
Don M Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 1,429 Thanks: 67 Thanked 292 Times in 191 Posts	The barrel markings indicate this pistol was rebarrelled by the Polizeischule für Technik und Verkehr (PTV) in Berlin using a barrel purchased from Simson. This was probably done in about 1929-30 using an LP08 that previously had been used by the Prussian Landjägerei since 1920. If it has a small /D stamped on the top of the rear toggle link, it is definitely a reworked LP08. The fact that the pistol has no sear safety indicates it probably went from the PTV to a barracked Bereitschaftspolizei* unit that was subsequently transferred to the military in 1934-35. I don't know what the 95 on the front grip strap means. Perhaps a good photo of it will help. __________________ Regards, Don donmaus1@aol.com Author of History Writ in Steel: German Police Markings 1900-1936 http://www.historywritinsteel.com

07-25-2010, 11:14 PM	#10
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,929 Thanks: 2,029 Thanked 4,527 Times in 2,090 Posts	I would need much better pictures to tell if it was a Sipson rework. Especially if it is mismatched; it might have some "parts" that have been made or accepted by Simson, but NOT a rework by them. That term is used anytime a dealer is unsure what they have. I have never seen a frame drilled on a pre-ww2 luge that was not finished. In fact, a magazine safety would have the frame cut, but the frame would not be? The sideplate would be, but I can't think why the frame would be, but it is 5:15 in the morning here, so... Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

07-26-2010, 01:55 PM	#14
Don M Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 1,429 Thanks: 67 Thanked 292 Times in 191 Posts	My apologies. I realize you mentioned at the outset that it once had a sear safety. That suggests that it originally was issued to the Revierpolizei (precinct police). However, it probably subsequently got transferred to the military where the sear safety was removed. While they are not common, I have observed other instances of this and own a Luger that experienced the same thing. __________________ Regards, Don donmaus1@aol.com Author of History Writ in Steel: German Police Markings 1900-1936 http://www.historywritinsteel.com

07-25-2010, 06:36 PM	#1
pjm30144airborne User Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Kennesaw Georgia Posts: 14 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	New member here in Kennesaw Ga with police rework purchase Hi yall. I am just getting in to lugers at 51 years of age. I wanted to see if I got a good deal on my recent purchase at the gun show. I bought a 1917 DWM Simpson rework, The gun is about 80% bluing little straw left. The gun is made from two guns. The take down lever, side plate, bolt and toggle are from another gun. The rest of the gun is matching #s The barrel shows early simpson stamps, #4 and eagle over 33 with eagle PTV mark. The frame is drilled with a 6mm hole for the safety but the frame was not cut so the safety was never installed. There is a pin in the hole where the sear safety was. It has all the imperial etc. proofs on right side bore is excellent. I bought it from a guy with a 1938 P08 holster for 650 with holster. here are some pics. The only mark I can not identify is a lone 95 on the front grip strap. I need mags for this serial 780 if anyone has any. I have a 6530 mag I can sell or trade. Attached Thumbnails

07-25-2010, 06:55 PM	#2
Railsplitter User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Chandler, AZ Posts: 112 Thanks: 0 Thanked 13 Times in 11 Posts	Welcome to The Forum !! I don't know much about DWM / Simpson reworks so I will have to leave any critical assessment to other Forum members. That being said, from what I can see, that pistol and that holster for $650.00 ... I'm buyin' !

07-25-2010, 07:18 PM	#4
FNorm Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Colorado Posts: 978 Thanks: 68 Thanked 127 Times in 108 Posts	Now ya did it! Ya went out and gotta luger! Don't you know those things are addictive? Next thing ya know you'll be looking at Krieghoffs..... LOL FN

07-25-2010, 08:33 PM	#5
pjm30144airborne User Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Kennesaw Georgia Posts: 14 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Thanks guys The mag has 6530 L + and small eagle with a 03 or 63 number under but too small to Tell. It is ribbed and aluminum based. have emailed MCNJ as he has advertised a wood based mag serial number 780 but he is not sure he wants to sell yet he has to find another period mag to replace it with.

07-25-2010, 09:54 PM	#7
pjm30144airborne User Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Kennesaw Georgia Posts: 14 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I thought so. I hope MCNJ will sell me the one with my serial number. What can I expect to pay for a wood base mag with a couple of chips ?

07-25-2010, 10:54 PM	#9
pjm30144airborne User Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Kennesaw Georgia Posts: 14 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Thanks. No doubt it was a LP08 and has the sight relief on top front of the receiver. A picture of the front strap won't help it is just a deep stamped 95 in the middle of the strap nothing else.

07-25-2010, 11:27 PM	#12
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,929 Thanks: 2,029 Thanked 4,527 Times in 2,090 Posts	No, thats at 3:50 and I have to be at work by 5:00 To wake up I check email and read the boards, its a 20-30 min drive over here. ed

07-26-2010, 08:22 AM	#13
pjm30144airborne User Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Kennesaw Georgia Posts: 14 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I have actually bought this from a private individual not a dealer. I have read in my reasearch on the web of several examples of police reworks that had the frame drilled but never had the safety install completed because they were in the process of removing ones all ready installed. I also read in a few pages from a book stating that simson were the only ones approved to rework the pistols after the war. Regardless it has been re barreled with 2 simson eagle over 33stamps and Police tech stamp (PTV) on the barrel with a #4 and 8,81 below that. There is no import stamp. The forward toggle link and rear toggle ling have been replaced as well as the side plate and take down lever all marked with 11 the frame receiver and all other parts are marked 80 for the serial number 780 with kirsif K below serial number. the rear toggle pivot or receiver axle pin is also stamped 80

07-26-2010, 03:19 PM	#15
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,929 Thanks: 2,029 Thanked 4,527 Times in 2,090 Posts	Don, I am not trying to be difficult, but it is from TWO DIFFERENT GUNS ... You can't say for sure what or why the sear safety was removed. If one of the owners did not have the sideplate and it had a sear safety, you could see the owner taking the sear safety off, otherwise it would be all wonky. Patrick , mismatched guns are good guesses but hard to say for sure? Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

07-26-2010, 04:22 PM	#18
pjm30144airborne User Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Kennesaw Georgia Posts: 14 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I appreciate all the input. This gun was purchased from the estate of a WWII vet> The guy I bought it from had other things from this estate as well. Note: all of the second gun parts are #11 and the last owner said he only shot it never did anything to it. Who knows what the vet who brought it back may have done. This was most likely a police pistol of some kind. The rear toggle pin is serial stamped 80 from the serial number 780 (1932 requirement) and there was once a sear safety as both holes are present. But for some reason the mag safety machining was never completed, only the hole was drilled. I have read on other forums that some sear safeties were removed by armorers during the war here is an example of the DDR (vopo) comments from another forum. "You bring up an interesting point about the safeties on DDR reworked Lugers. Every one I have seen only has the original safety lever made operational. Any magazine or sear safeties were either removed or disconnected. Removing the Weimar period police safeties seems to be the standard protocol followed by DDR armorers when refurbishing these P.08 pistols. I would offer the theory that it was standard operating procedure for DDR armorers to refurbish or repair these pistols with only the one safety made operational. My 1957 copy of Waffen- und GelÃ¤ndekunde does not specifically address that issue but does show only the one original safety and only indicates this safety in use. It seems to make sense that newly manufactured parts, such as the sideplate, might leave space for the old safeties if they were still present. I would think that leaving the cutout on this sideplate would be prudent so that DDR armorers could use the sideplate to repair a pistol that still had the sear safety in place in an emergency. A field armorer in time of war might not have the equipment to remove the sear safety but could put a luger that still had one back into action with this new sideplate" I am sure I will never know really but it makes for an interesting gun and well worth the $550.00 I paid for it. $100.00 for the holster. I think I got a good deal.

07-26-2010, 04:50 PM	#19
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,929 Thanks: 2,029 Thanked 4,527 Times in 2,090 Posts	If there is a mag safety hole, then the rest was probably re-welded and reblued. Many times you can tell, but sometimes you can't. I'd like to see close up, clear pictures with the sideplate removed. __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

07-26-2010, 09:03 PM	#20
pjm30144airborne User Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Kennesaw Georgia Posts: 14 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	When would this have happened? I have just looked under bright lights from the inside through the back side with the grips off and you can see it was welded up. So it did have a functional mag safety the finish looks original and has patina and you can not tell the weld is there from the outside!! I was wrong and am sorry. Can anyone shed light on the weld and reblue? It must have been done back in the 30's maybe when it went in to WWII? Could they have taken off the sear safety too at that time? I have read on another forum that VOPO off both safeties off when they reworked a Luger. The grips are period but are stamped 21 (wrong serial number) and they are not broken under the safety (MILLION dollar break)