What do I have here?

JohnF · 03-12-2003, 03:49 AM

I'm starting to understand military Lugers a bit better but have now found what I believe to be a commercial/police model. This DWM made pistol has no proof marks other than a crown/N just above the serial number on the left side and what looks to be an Erfurt proof on the barrel. The serial number #4466 has a military placement. It is fully number matched and has no date on the chamber. There is a marking on the gripstrap, P.K.52, which I think may be a police marking. The magazine looks to me like a Simson proofed police mag. Can anyone give me more information about this pistol and identify the unit mark please? As always, your assistance will be much appreciated. Here are some pictures:

Lugerdoc · 03-12-2003, 09:10 AM

I agree that your E/6 military accepted mag started its life from Simson and later renumbered 4466 with non-traditional dies. If the police had renumbered it, I'd expect the die size to be the same as the 2 stamped above the S/N. Is there a proof on the right side of the barrel extention? Hard to tell from your photo. This may provide more info on who & when your luger was converted from a commerical. Tom H.

John Sabato · 03-12-2003, 10:47 AM

JohnF,

The magazine serial number looks to me like a renumber... does the mag bottom look as though it has been ground down before the number stamps were applied... this type of operation usually makes the knobs appear to be out of round from the side view... it is hard to tell from your photo, but it sure looks like a nice Luger

JohnF · 03-12-2003, 12:08 PM

Thank you for your help guys - including correcting my mistake in posting one of the picture links - was that you John?
I don't have this pistol yet so I can't produce better photos of the right hand side but as far as I can see there are no proofs at all on the right and the vendor told me that too.
Am I right in thinking that it is an Erfurt proof under the barrel? I've lightened the photo a bit to show it better - see below.

If it is, given that the serial numbers all match, does this mean that this gun has been boosted or was it originally assembled like this by DWM using a left-over Erfurt proofed barrel with the serial number added at the time of manufacture? The C/N proof suggests Weimar to me and I think that the Erfurt arsenal was closed by then.
Additionally, I'm still very bad at reading script so could someone please tell me what block this comes from - the letter shows up better in the new photo. Any ideas on the likely date of manufacture?
As far as the mag goes, it certainly looks like a forced match but I have no idea if this is recent or done at the time. It looks pretty round to me and I have a slightly better photo below.

Was I right in describing this a comercial model or is there a better description that I should be using?
Finally, I really hope that someone can interpret the unit mark for me. Is it a police mark and, if so, from where. I originally thought of Koenigsberg but that's Kg - so maybe Karlsruhe?
Lots of questions I'm afraid but, what the heck, I joined the forum to learn...........

John Sabato · 03-12-2003, 12:27 PM

Must have been Ed that corrected your image UBB syntax JohnF... It was looking fine the first time I saw it.

IMNSHO I would call it refitted rather than boosted.

It was not uncommon for Erfurt barrels to be used by DWM when the need arose. It may have even been a wartime repair by DWM.

My opinion of "Nice Luger" still stands, and from the side, it doesn't appear that the mag has been ground down (at least from the photos).

The suffix looks like an 'r' to me...

Check out the Techcnical Info pages to see this under markings.

policeluger · 03-12-2003, 12:29 PM

I can't tell what the proof mark is under the barrel, but I am sure it is not a police gun. Police would/should start with a "S. ...." not P. And there does not appear too be a sear safety. I have, and have seen several re-numbered mags, in the Wiemar period with similar larger re-stamped numbers on the clip bottoms and believe that it is period correct. It is a great looking gun, and it will be fun finding out what the unit marking are.

Edward Tinker · 03-12-2003, 12:42 PM

Great pictures John F, research hopefully will tell us something.

JohnF · 03-13-2003, 03:00 AM

Well one mystery has been solved. It seems that it is a police gun. Forum member RockinWr was kind enough to supply the following references:

John Walter's "The Luger Book", Pg.229: "P.K.=(b).....under V.f.d.P.40a-the Prussian Police college (Polizei-Schule) at Kiel."

Gortz/Bryans "German Small Arms Markings...", Pg.103: under V.f.d.P.40a, Annex 10 released in 1932 - PK=Kiel Police school.

Lugerdoc · 03-13-2003, 10:25 AM

John F, Your suffix letter is definately an R. The partial eagle stamp under the barrel, looks a bit like a Simson Weimar era rework stamp. I think rather than a Police marking, the "P.K.xx" on your grip strap, translates to "Personen-Kraftwagenpark des XX armeekorps" or the Passenger Vehicle Depot of the xx Army Corp. (see Jeff Noll's "Imperial German Regimental markings" page 40. Tom H.

JohnF · 03-13-2003, 12:05 PM

Oh dear, just when I thought that the unit mark question was settled. I would have thought though, that a military Luger would have had military acceptance proofs on it somewhere?

Ron Wood · 03-13-2003, 12:13 PM

While I really admire Jeff Noll's research and publications, I would be inclined to go with the police school markings. While Walter's interpretations are sometimes called into question, it is hard to go up against Gortz.

Ron Wood · 03-13-2003, 05:14 PM

Just noticed, in Gortz's identification, there is no period between the P and the K. Wonder if that makes a difference?

JohnF · 03-13-2003, 06:15 PM

Well it looks like the unit mark will remain a mystery for the time being. I tend to favour the police explanation as it is consistent with the magazine but that's only an opinion.
One other point that was cleared up elsewhere is the barrel proof - this is a Weimar crown/g marking and not an Erfurt proof as I had thought. The date of manufacture for this pistol is 1928. The last two observations are courtesy of Jan Still.

Dwight Gruber · 03-14-2003, 02:03 AM

Ron,

It appears that unit markings, and their identification, is not quite cut-and-dried. The "Annex 10" list on p.103 of GÃ?Â¶rtz & Bryans lists the Allenstein Landjagerie school mark as LSAI. (period at the end is part of the mark, as listed). On the next page there is a photograph of a grip strap marking identified as Allenstein Landjaegerie school; the stamp is LS.AI.45. (note the middle period).

I find this particularly vexing as I have an H.P. marked 1929 Police Luger, with matching marked mag. The closest marking I can find to this is HP. (on the same list). This marking is identified as Senior Service Police Academy, and the marking on my Luger has been so identified, but there seems to be some disagreement about it.

--Dwight

policeluger · 03-14-2003, 09:44 AM

Dwight, my H.P. Police Luger has a sear safety installed, does yours? thanks

Dwight Gruber · 03-14-2003, 10:28 AM

Sear safety, aye.

--Dwight

03-12-2003, 03:49 AM	#1
JohnF User Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: UK Posts: 167 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	What do I have here? I'm starting to understand military Lugers a bit better but have now found what I believe to be a commercial/police model. This DWM made pistol has no proof marks other than a crown/N just above the serial number on the left side and what looks to be an Erfurt proof on the barrel. The serial number #4466 has a military placement. It is fully number matched and has no date on the chamber. There is a marking on the gripstrap, P.K.52, which I think may be a police marking. The magazine looks to me like a Simson proofed police mag. Can anyone give me more information about this pistol and identify the unit mark please? As always, your assistance will be much appreciated. Here are some pictures:

03-12-2003, 09:10 AM	#2
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 736 Times in 483 Posts	I agree that your E/6 military accepted mag started its life from Simson and later renumbered 4466 with non-traditional dies. If the police had renumbered it, I'd expect the die size to be the same as the 2 stamped above the S/N. Is there a proof on the right side of the barrel extention? Hard to tell from your photo. This may provide more info on who & when your luger was converted from a commerical. Tom H. __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 lugerdoc@charter.net

03-12-2003, 10:47 AM	#3
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,150 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	JohnF, The magazine serial number looks to me like a renumber... does the mag bottom look as though it has been ground down before the number stamps were applied... this type of operation usually makes the knobs appear to be out of round from the side view... it is hard to tell from your photo, but it sure looks like a nice Luger __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

03-12-2003, 12:27 PM	#5
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,150 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	Must have been Ed that corrected your image UBB syntax JohnF... It was looking fine the first time I saw it. IMNSHO I would call it refitted rather than boosted. It was not uncommon for Erfurt barrels to be used by DWM when the need arose. It may have even been a wartime repair by DWM. My opinion of "Nice Luger" still stands, and from the side, it doesn't appear that the mag has been ground down (at least from the photos). The suffix looks like an 'r' to me... Check out the Techcnical Info pages to see this under markings. __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

03-12-2003, 12:42 PM	#7
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,911 Thanks: 1,986 Thanked 4,502 Times in 2,077 Posts	Great pictures John F, research hopefully will tell us something. __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

03-12-2003, 12:08 PM	#4
JohnF User Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: UK Posts: 167 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Thank you for your help guys - including correcting my mistake in posting one of the picture links - was that you John? I don't have this pistol yet so I can't produce better photos of the right hand side but as far as I can see there are no proofs at all on the right and the vendor told me that too. Am I right in thinking that it is an Erfurt proof under the barrel? I've lightened the photo a bit to show it better - see below. If it is, given that the serial numbers all match, does this mean that this gun has been boosted or was it originally assembled like this by DWM using a left-over Erfurt proofed barrel with the serial number added at the time of manufacture? The C/N proof suggests Weimar to me and I think that the Erfurt arsenal was closed by then. Additionally, I'm still very bad at reading script so could someone please tell me what block this comes from - the letter shows up better in the new photo. Any ideas on the likely date of manufacture? As far as the mag goes, it certainly looks like a forced match but I have no idea if this is recent or done at the time. It looks pretty round to me and I have a slightly better photo below. Was I right in describing this a comercial model or is there a better description that I should be using? Finally, I really hope that someone can interpret the unit mark for me. Is it a police mark and, if so, from where. I originally thought of Koenigsberg but that's Kg - so maybe Karlsruhe? Lots of questions I'm afraid but, what the heck, I joined the forum to learn...........

03-12-2003, 12:29 PM	#6
policeluger RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Ca. Posts: 2,141 Thanks: 8 Thanked 89 Times in 54 Posts	I can't tell what the proof mark is under the barrel, but I am sure it is not a police gun. Police would/should start with a "S. ...." not P. And there does not appear too be a sear safety. I have, and have seen several re-numbered mags, in the Wiemar period with similar larger re-stamped numbers on the clip bottoms and believe that it is period correct. It is a great looking gun, and it will be fun finding out what the unit marking are.

03-13-2003, 03:00 AM	#8
JohnF User Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: UK Posts: 167 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Well one mystery has been solved. It seems that it is a police gun. Forum member RockinWr was kind enough to supply the following references: John Walter's "The Luger Book", Pg.229: "P.K.=(b).....under V.f.d.P.40a-the Prussian Police college (Polizei-Schule) at Kiel." Gortz/Bryans "German Small Arms Markings...", Pg.103: under V.f.d.P.40a, Annex 10 released in 1932 - PK=Kiel Police school.

03-13-2003, 10:25 AM	#9
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 736 Times in 483 Posts	John F, Your suffix letter is definately an R. The partial eagle stamp under the barrel, looks a bit like a Simson Weimar era rework stamp. I think rather than a Police marking, the "P.K.xx" on your grip strap, translates to "Personen-Kraftwagenpark des XX armeekorps" or the Passenger Vehicle Depot of the xx Army Corp. (see Jeff Noll's "Imperial German Regimental markings" page 40. Tom H. __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 lugerdoc@charter.net

03-13-2003, 12:05 PM	#10
JohnF User Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: UK Posts: 167 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Oh dear, just when I thought that the unit mark question was settled. I would have thought though, that a military Luger would have had military acceptance proofs on it somewhere?

03-13-2003, 12:13 PM	#11
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 6,987 Thanks: 1,065 Thanked 5,090 Times in 1,675 Posts	While I really admire Jeff Noll's research and publications, I would be inclined to go with the police school markings. While Walter's interpretations are sometimes called into question, it is hard to go up against Gortz. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

03-13-2003, 05:14 PM	#12
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 6,987 Thanks: 1,065 Thanked 5,090 Times in 1,675 Posts	Just noticed, in Gortz's identification, there is no period between the P and the K. Wonder if that makes a difference? __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

03-13-2003, 06:15 PM	#13
JohnF User Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: UK Posts: 167 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Well it looks like the unit mark will remain a mystery for the time being. I tend to favour the police explanation as it is consistent with the magazine but that's only an opinion. One other point that was cleared up elsewhere is the barrel proof - this is a Weimar crown/g marking and not an Erfurt proof as I had thought. The date of manufacture for this pistol is 1928. The last two observations are courtesy of Jan Still.

03-14-2003, 02:03 AM	#14
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,890 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,282 Times in 424 Posts	Ron, It appears that unit markings, and their identification, is not quite cut-and-dried. The "Annex 10" list on p.103 of GÃ?Â¶rtz & Bryans lists the Allenstein Landjagerie school mark as LSAI. (period at the end is part of the mark, as listed). On the next page there is a photograph of a grip strap marking identified as Allenstein Landjaegerie school; the stamp is LS.AI.45. (note the middle period). I find this particularly vexing as I have an H.P. marked 1929 Police Luger, with matching marked mag. The closest marking I can find to this is HP. (on the same list). This marking is identified as Senior Service Police Academy, and the marking on my Luger has been so identified, but there seems to be some disagreement about it. --Dwight

03-14-2003, 09:44 AM	#15
policeluger RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Ca. Posts: 2,141 Thanks: 8 Thanked 89 Times in 54 Posts	Dwight, my H.P. Police Luger has a sear safety installed, does yours? thanks

03-14-2003, 10:28 AM	#16
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,890 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,282 Times in 424 Posts	Sear safety, aye. --Dwight