Death Head

[aaa]

Bought a 1912 dated Erfurt with a death head stamped above the date. Ser # is 2398a and it has the military stamps. How can I tell if its a fake. The barrel and frame appear to be more polished than the toggle assm. and extractor. It also has red 9 stamped into the grips?

[Garfield]

Gut reaction? It's is a fake. Pictures would help a great deal. There are some "death's head" Imperial lugers that most accept as vintage marked. There is no consensus as to who used them. These lugers are late war; 1917/1918. The fact that the pistol appears to be refinshed and the "Red Nines" don't help. Just my opinion. Best to avoid these "exotic" items.

Where did you pick it up?

Regards

[Jan C Still]

aaa
I agree with Garfield concerning your 1912 Deaths Head. Unfortunatley Klaus Schad,
the recognized world expert on the deaths head lugers,no longer posts on this forum.
Jan

[Pete Ebbink]

Hello Mark (aka AAA),

If you have a digital camera or have a friend that can help you out, it might be nice to post some jpeg photos here on the Forum.

It would be nice to give the experts here on our Forum a chance to "see" your luger before it is totally concluded to be a "fake".

As with many other lugers, especially the somewhat more rare variations; even the experts disagree from time to time... <img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" />

[Garfield]

Excuse me, Pete:

I don't think anyone responding, to date, has concluded anything. You may note, that I suggested that pictures would be helpful.

[Lonnie Zimmerman]

Garfield; I would say your gut reaction that it was a fake would be considered a conclusion.
Lonnie

[Pete Ebbink]

Garfield,

I think the opening sentence of your post read as " Gut reaction. It's is a fake"...

I agree with all; photos would be nice before the word "fake" is thrown out there...

[Garfield]

Well, sorry, however, the owner of the pistol initially asked how he could tell if it was a fake. I told him what my gut reaction(read that as, my initial reaction) was based on what he had posted and why. If that is a conclusion, by your standards, so be it. It is also my opinion, which I have a right to express when asked to do so.

[aaa]

Thank you all for your input. I will take up the sugestion to post pics of the gun. I will also add more details about the gun. Any way to contact the Death Head expert?. I would like his input also. Im new to collecting lugers and don't know which variations I want to stick with, but would consider any all matching rigs if any one has one for sale.

Thanx agin!!

[Orv Reichert]

Klaus left the forum after a bunch of folks jumped on him for saying a KNOWN fake was a fake.

Too bad!

He is a world famous expert on this stuff. We lost a great source of data and information.

Orv Reichert

[Edward Tinker]

No Orv, he was jumped on for being rude and not backing up anything he had to say to show us that the gun was a "known" fake.

He might be famous for his knowledge to some, but that was his first exposure to many on the forum and so how would we know he was a knowledgeable guy?


(this is in a general sense and not directed at you Orv)

You might know it is a truth, but I won't accept it as truth just because you say it is, show me some research, some facts and then I will believe it is the truth.

[Jan C Still]

Ed
I have known Orv for almost 20 years. He has earned a reputation as a highly knowledgeable collector and is highly respected by his pears.
The same can be said for Klaus Schad. (The gold plated Luger he discussed had already earned the name of fake in both German and American publications).

The word of both these collectors has great credibility and merit. In my opinion, its asking a lot of such experts to reprove something thatâ??s already been published and proven. Perhaps you should look up these articles and occasionally find out whatâ??s going on in the collecting world beyond this Forum. Its everybodys loss when such experts leave this forum.
Jan

[Frank]

Jan,

I havenâ??t known Orv Reichert nearly as long as you have, but I will say that every time we have conversed via phone or email, he has been an absolute gentleman. While he is a well-known authority in his field, he is quick to admit he doesnâ??t have all the answers. He never has said â??these are the facts, donâ??t ask me for proofâ?�. Instead, he will try to provide all the information that leads him to a conclusion, sometimes in summary, but at least itâ??s data.

Now having said that, just because an authority writes something, doesnâ??t make it so. I will give you an example. In your book â??Third Reich Lugersâ?�, on page 65, you state the serial range for a 1939, Code 42 is 200r-8250z. You donâ??t say itâ??s about, you say it IS. Well, sir, I have a perfectly good 1939, Code 42 with a serial number of 5433q. This serial number is over 5000 pistols below your â??statedâ?� minimum. This is NOT a criticism, but just to point out that your book was written about 15 years ago, and at that time I believe your data showed you the low side was 200r, but that doesnâ??t make it so.

I donâ??t know Klaus Schad, but I will tell you that my impression of him is, well, something that I will not write. To say garish would be too kind. His actions were not in the spirit of trying to help the forum members understand the problem. If it was his choice to leave the forum, so be it, whether he is an authority or not. He still puts his pants on one leg at a time, just like the rest of us!
<img src="graemlins/soapbox.gif" border="0" alt="[soapbox]" />

[Johnny Peppers]

Frank,
In all fairness to Jan Still, you should read the information on page 1 entitled "SERIAL NUMBER DATA TABLES" before you skip to page 65.

[Navy]

Fellow Forum Members,

It would seem that there are several dynamic forces in play here.

First of all, the primary membership of the forum is a mixed bag vis-a-vis knowledge and experience. Logically following on this premise is that the membership is somewhat diverse (in the good, non Klinton sence of the word) and thirdly, there are some folks with exceptionally thin skins, regardless of their depth of knowledge. Egos are often fragile and for some, especially those who have devoted 40-50 years of their lives in research and SHARING the results of that research, perhaps that ego is justified.

I know that when Allan Greenspan says "the economy is sound", no one asks him to prove it; his mastery of the material is such that his view, while perhaps short of evidentary proof, certainly qualifies as "Expert opinion".

Gents and ladies, we do have some bona fide experts on this forum. We also have some neophytes, many in between and some misinformed few who believe that the maximus corpus of Luger knowledge resides here. It simply ain't so.

I would suggest that when a recognized authority and published author, who happens to NOT be a dealer opines, perhaps he should be given some respect as he is providing "expert opinion".

If his expert opinion ruffles some feathers, well, thats the way it goes.
My zwei pfennig,
Tom A.

<img src="graemlins/soapbox.gif" border="0" alt="[soapbox]" />

[Frank]

I don't believe anyone has questioned the expertise aspect of the comments. It makes absolutely no sense to be rude, even if you have 40 or 50 years of research behind you. Nuff Said!!

[Garfield]

Tom A:

My turn to say, "AMEN, AMEN"!

And to you Frank, your comment regarding your opinion of Klaus Shad makes about as much sense as if you would say, "That Tiger Woods may shoot a good game of golf, but he puts his pants on one leg at a time".

[Brandon]

Garfield,
Does Tiger really jump into his pants?

Frank's point was, even though Klaus is regarded as a "Luger Expert", that don't mean he is right 100% of the time, and it don't mean he is better or smarter than anybody else!

My Two Pennies!
Brandon...

[wterrell]

[quote]Unfortunatley Klaus Schad,
the recognized world expert on the deaths head lugers,no longer posts on this forum.
<hr></blockquote>

Jan,

Can Klaus Schad be persuaded to rejoin us in the forum? His case is similar to yours; more collectors respect and value your opinion than post messages. The greater percentage of the 435 members listen quite closely to expert arguments.

We are all men here and tend to get rowdy, but we should always be proud of a shiner honorably acquired.

Bye the bye, does not "Gut reaction" mean 'preliminary' reaction, subject to change upon learning more facts?

[Garfield]

Wes:

"Gut Reaction - preliminary reaction, subject to change upon learning more facts". The very words that I was searching for! Lonnie, Pete, write that down, commit it to memory. Never can tell, you might be selected as a contestant on the Weakest Link.

Brandon:

IMHO, I think that you have missed the point entirely, but then I am not right 100% of the time.

Good Hunting,