New to Lugers, may have a DWM on my hands?

[09cs]

Need the experts help here!

My grandfather has had this Luger for years, I'm looking to purchase it, but have no clue what it's worth, or really anything about it. All he knows is it's "7mm", which I'm guessing he means 7.65x21 parabellum, and he can't find the magazine.

http://imgur.com/a/xIs8m

Here are some cell phone pics I was able to grab. Any other details you experts need?

[Edward Tinker]

I made it so you would be notified. Welcome to the forum

Its preferred if you post pictures here

It doesn't have the right info - close up of under the barrel - serial number
it is likely 30 Luger (7.65mm luger) as it was meant for the US market, as it is marked Germany
Magazine looks like it is a WW2 mag?
Crown N on the left?
Looks in nice shape, although its a shooter, as the stock lug was ground off. At first I was trying to figure out why the color looked funny. Ask if your grandfather did that, or bought it that way. during the 60's, people were told that if you attached a stock it was a "short barreled rifle" and so people ground the stock lugs off

Value, around $600 for a 30 luger - if it was 9mm luger then $800 max

Ed

[09cs]

Thank you Ed,

I will get pictures of serial number and under the barrel.

Yes it appears to be a crown N on the side. Unfortunately he doesn't remember much these days but will ask, all he remembers was he bought it (or was gifted) it from his father in law back in the day.

Any idea on year?

[Edward Tinker]

Depends on serial number, include any letters
1920's is a good guess

[09cs]

Serial number 8368, only letter I saw was an "N" with a crown

[mrerick]

There are a number of questions I'd have about this Luger.

The crowns stamped on the frame and barrel don't look like what you'd find on a DWM Alphabet Commercial (which I think was Ed's assumption). Usually there is a suffix letter there, not a crown stamp.

The side plate profile looks unusual,

Please photograph the entire pistol left and right, the muzzle from the front and the top toggle train areas.

Is there a marking near your thumb in the last photo?

Is the receiver slightly proud (in front of) the frame in the front of the pistol near the serial number?

Marc

[DonVoigt]

The marking under his thumb is a import stamping.

The larger crowns look like post-war Suhl commercial proofing.

[Mac Cat]

Good start on the photos !
Photograph the top and back of the toggle and chamber!

[DonVoigt]

Originally Posted by Mac Cat

Good start on the photos !
Photograph the top and back of the toggle and chamber!

And please post them on the server here.
One can't enlarge the photos posted on what ever host server you are using.

And eventually the picture links will disappear and this thread will be meaningless.

[09cs]

Originally Posted by mrerick

There are a number of questions I'd have about this Luger.

The crowns stamped on the frame and barrel don't look like what you'd find on a DWM Alphabet Commercial (which I think was Ed's assumption). Usually there is a suffix letter there, not a crown stamp.

The side plate profile looks unusual,

Please photograph the entire pistol left and right, the muzzle from the front and the top toggle train areas.

Is there a marking near your thumb in the last photo?

Is the receiver slightly proud (in front of) the frame in the front of the pistol near the serial number?

Marc

Do you mind elaborating on the bold parts of the quote? Not exactly sure what they are/mean.

Originally Posted by Mac Cat

Good start on the photos !
Photograph the top and back of the toggle and chamber!

I will try to get the chamber, is there a way to get the slide, or toggle (not sure the correct term for a Luger) to lock back without a magazine?

Originally Posted by DonVoigt

And please post them on the server here.
One can't enlarge the photos posted on what ever host server you are using.

And eventually the picture links will disappear and this thread will be meaningless.

Will do! Was unaware of that

[09cs]

Hope some of these are better/help

[DonVoigt]

Your stock lug has been ground or filed down by about 1/2.

Even though use of a stock is not legal with this luger, it reduces its value to that of a shooter only.

The crown on the frame and the lower crown on the barrel are still a puzzle and not "original" to the luger's manufacture.

[09cs]

Originally Posted by DonVoigt

Your stock lug has been ground or filed down by about 1/2.

Even though use of a stock is not legal with this luger, it reduces its value to that of a shooter only.

The crown on the frame and the lower crown on the barrel are still a puzzle and not "original" to the luger's manufacture.

Yes, I believe Ed mentioned something of that as well. Something about a lot of people doing it in the 60's out of fear of something.

With the crown, I would ask if it was an aftermarket barrel, but that wouldn't explain the frame.

[09cs]

I found this, "The crown "N" proof was introduced in 1906 as a derivative of the 1893 Proof Law. For commercial gun intended for public sale it was upright and replaced a plethora of various proof house individual proofs."

http://www.phoenixinvestmentarms.com/1320DWM23.html

Looks similar to the N crown on this one

[ithacaartist]

Originally Posted by 09cs

Yes, I believe Ed mentioned something of that as well. Something about a lot of people doing it in the 60's out of fear of something.

That "something" would be prosecution by the BATFE for owning an unregistered Short-Barreled Rifle" (SBR), risking a ten year prison sentence and/or hefty fine. The Gun Control Act of 1968 was interpreted erroneously by some, and stock lugs were ground off to avoid running afoul of the law. It is actually OK to own a Luger with a stock lug. What is illegal is to own both a Luger NOT originally destined to have one, and a shoulder stock--which is taken as evidence of "constructive intent."

Lugers originally accompanied with a shoulder stock when purchased or issued, including the Navy, Artillery, and Carbine models, can be used with a stock--but only the proper style of original or reproduction stock they would have had when new, e.g Navy gun with Navy stock, Carbine with carbine stock, etc. These are exempted in a list maintained by the BATFE.

Is the receiver slightly proud (in front of) the frame in the front of the pistol near the serial number?

Marc
Do you mind elaborating on the bold parts of the quote? Not exactly sure what they are/mean.

Around 1906, production of the "New Model" Parabellum was phased in. A New Model's grip frame is about 0.10" shorter than an Old Model frame. This change in dimension takes place in the area of the chamber of the receiver. One can notice the difference in a glance at the curve on the front, bottom of the grip frame under the barrel, through which the takedown lever is installed. An Old Model will have symmetrical dimensions ahead of and below the hole for the take-down lever. A New Model has an obviously shorter dimension in front of the lever.

Marc's question concerns possible "proudness" or protrusion of the face of the barrel extension beyond the face of the grip frame. This happens when a mix-master is created by assembling a longer, Old Model receiver atop the shorter, New Model grip frame, a situation where that tenth of an inch really shows up! Yours looks OK to me, though.

[DonVoigt]

Originally Posted by 09cs

I found this, "The crown "N" proof was introduced in 1906 as a derivative of the 1893 Proof Law. For commercial gun intended for public sale it was upright and replaced a plethora of various proof house individual proofs."

http://www.phoenixinvestmentarms.com/1320DWM23.html

Looks similar to the N crown on this one

It is not the crown/n that is the puzzle, they are quite correct and common.

It is the larger crown, alone- stamped on the frame and the lower curve of the barrel. These two crowns appear to have been stamped after finish as they show bare metal in the stamping- at least they do in these pictures. These are the Puzzle.

Better close ups of those crowns, posted on the server here, would be a help to see them more clearly.

[09cs]

Originally Posted by DonVoigt

It is not the crown/n that is the puzzle, they are quite correct and common.

It is the larger crown, alone- stamped on the frame and the lower curve of the barrel. These two crowns appear to have been stamped after finish as they show bare metal in the stamping- at least they do in these pictures. These are the Puzzle.

Better close ups of those crowns, posted on the server here, would be a help to see them more clearly.

The ones circled in red correct?

Originally Posted by ithacaartist

That "something" would be prosecution by the BATFE for owning an unregistered Short-Barreled Rifle" (SBR), risking a ten year prison sentence and/or hefty fine. The Gun Control Act of 1968 was interpreted erroneously by some, and stock lugs were ground off to avoid running afoul of the law. It is actually OK to own a Luger with a stock lug. What is illegal is to own both a Luger NOT originally destined to have one, and a shoulder stock--which is taken as evidence of "constructive intent."

Lugers originally accompanied with a shoulder stock when purchased or issued, including the Navy, Artillery, and Carbine models, can be used with a stock--but only the proper style of original or reproduction stock they would have had when new, e.g Navy gun with Navy stock, Carbine with carbine stock, etc. These are exempted in a list maintained by the BATFE.



Around 1906, production of the "New Model" Parabellum was phased in. A New Model's grip frame is about 0.10" shorter than an Old Model frame. This change in dimension takes place in the area of the chamber of the receiver. One can notice the difference in a glance at the curve on the front, bottom of the grip frame under the barrel, through which the takedown lever is installed. An Old Model will have symmetrical dimensions ahead of and below the hole for the take-down lever. A New Model has an obviously shorter dimension in front of the lever.

Marc's question concerns possible "proudness" or protrusion of the face of the barrel extension beyond the face of the grip frame. This happens when a mix-master is created by assembling a longer, Old Model receiver atop the shorter, New Model grip frame, a situation where that tenth of an inch really shows up! Yours looks OK to me, though.

Thanks for the great post!

[Dwight Gruber]

There are several reports of Alphabet Commercials whose letter suffixes are overstamped with crowns, very effectively obliterating the letter. The reason for this overstamping is unknown.

--Dwight

[Lugerdoc]

Dwight, You are correct. Over the years I've seen several of these that were over stamped in the q,r,s & t alpha commerical range. As I recall, one of the luger books call these "crown" suffix alphas the "Riff" contract. Supposably ordered by a North African terrorist group and never paid for, so just sold thru normal commerical channels. Why suffix was overstamped, is a still a mystry. Perhaps the original serials were already recorded as sold or already duplicated, so had to be overstamped to avoid duplication. TH

[Lyn Islaub]

This is the 4th or 5th Luger that I've seen with crowns over stamping the alpha suffix of the serial number. As Tom and Dwight stated, they all seem to be alphabet commercial pistols. I believe that I still have one in the safe and will post pictures when I locate it.
Lyn