30 ammo

Alan Von Ruden · 09-30-2009, 10:17 PM

howdy. i have had pops lugers for some time now and just recently at a local show found out that I have a "1923 Commercial matched .30 cal" according to the knowledgeabl guy i spoke to. surprise! i did not know about.30 and he said he neve heard of 7.65mm. anyway, how do i get ammo and are reloading goods available?
Thanks, Alan.

Mauser720 · 10-01-2009, 12:08 AM

Alan -

I got a case from these folks: www.samcoglobal.com

It was all made by Sako and reasonably priced.

FNorm · 10-01-2009, 02:51 AM

How does it shoot? Compared to Fiocchi?

Midway has the dies. MidwayUSA.com

FN

Ice · 10-01-2009, 08:32 AM

I can add that the Starline 7.65 Luger cases are excellent.

Charlie

Vlim · 10-01-2009, 09:51 AM

.30 Luger = .30 Para = .30 Parabellum = 7,65 Parabellum = 7,65 Luger.

Straight 7,65mm = .32 ACP (you don't want that).

spartacus38 · 10-01-2009, 10:05 AM

I have had very good luck with .30 Luger 93 grain FMJ

from Fiocchi.

Bob

Mauser720 · 10-01-2009, 10:53 AM

FNorm -

I have not used Fiocchi.

I think the Sako stuff shoots fine and is accurate.

Here it is on an FBI "Q" target. A few "fliers" but that's my fault.

Ice · 10-01-2009, 11:36 AM

Is the Sako brass reloadable?

Thx

Charlie

PhilOhio · 10-01-2009, 11:38 AM

Alan,

I've gotten heavily into .30 Luger (aka 7.65mm Parabellum) this past month, for my SIG P-210, and have learned a lot.

Bore diameter in inches is .3095" nominal. Molds are available for the 93 grain lead bullet, which is ideal. I size it to .311", but had to make my own sizing die to do that. Maybe somebody sells one. The diameter of lead bullets should always be a little larger than for equivalent jacketed bullets, to enhance accuracy and prevent leading, although that may sound counterintuitive.

But I think a .308 bullet would be just fine. Lee thinks so, too, as their inexpensive, high quality reloading dies are set up for .308". There seems to be considerable user experience that .308 bullets are quite accurate, but I have not tried that yet.

If you make your own cases from .38 Super, 9mm Largo, or something like that, the rims must be turned down slightly on a lathe, to .394". And after forming in the Lee sizing die, you must do whatever is necessary to reduce wall thickness in the neck area to a maximum of .010", or they won't likely chamber. Sized from 9mm brass without thinning, the necks come out at around .015" thick, which won't work. There is not really a significant increase; this is about what the 9mm diameter case mouths were before. But the whole thing is too much of a hassle, I decided after working my way through a bag of 100 new .38 Super cases.

Best way is to simply buy Starline or Winchester .30 Luger cases. The latter have a wall thickness of exactly .010" in the neck. They also use an empty case OAL of .840", which is good. Reloading books say trim to .845", but Winchester's number is better.

So yes, everything you need for reloading is available, and that is by far the best way to go, unless you are made of money. And also, lead bullet reloads put just about zero wear on the bore of a valuable antique pistol.

With lead bullets, hold velocity to about 1000 to 1100 FPS and use any good bullet lube. Your bore will not lead up, unless you go way too high on velocity, and .30 Luger was never intended for velocities and pressures in the higher range of the .30 Mauser anyway.

Many powders are fine; Unique, Bullseye, W231, etc. I like W231, max 4.2 grains with the 93 grain bullet.

Mauser720 · 10-01-2009, 11:55 AM

Ice -

I am not much of a reloader, so please take whatever I say "with a grain of salt." The Sako brass is probably Berdan primed since it is my understanding that is what is common in Europe. When I look down inside an empty case, I see two little holes slightly offset from the center of the bottom of the case. I assume that means there is an "anvil" just underneath the primer. It is my understaning that such Berdan primed brass is not considered reloadable.

PhilOhio -

I know a guy who does reload Berdan primed 6.5 X 55 mm Swedish Mauser. He does this by drilling a small hole in the center of bottom of the case from the inside. Then he pops out the primer with a thin punch. Then he reseats a Boxer primer in the case. He says this works fine in both bolt action Mausers and also his semiautomatic Jungman (not sure of the spelling). Maybe this is a common practice? Or maybe it is safe? Or maybe it is not safe? I don't know. But with your knowledge, I can tell that you would be in a position to know if this is safe or not, etc.

John Sabato · 10-01-2009, 03:57 PM

IMHO I would not consider this case drilling method safe.

The Berdan design case has a built in anvil. To eliminate it by drilling would be too large a flash hole IMHO. Berdan cases CAN be reload with Berdan primers and the appropriate tools. Those that I have know who have reloaded these types of cases generall decap their fired cased by filling the cases with water, and then using a round tightly fitting punch the hydraulically push out the fired primers by placing the case over an appropriately sized hole in a steel plate and whacking the punch with a good hammer.

DavidJayUden · 10-01-2009, 05:22 PM

And that, my friends, is a great way to get a bath.
I also have a tool called a Hydro-punch that apparently incorporates hydraulic water pressure to decap Berdan primers. I got it with a .450 Nitro but with BELL brass being available it was easier to shelve the Kynoch stuff and load with boxer Federal 215 primers.
Never heard of drilling a center hole. I actually thought that the primer cavities were of different size.
Anyway, there is enough boxer brass out there to load with, or shoot Berdan and let it lie. Heck, you'll probably loose half of them each time you shoot anyway.
DJU

saab-bob · 10-01-2009, 08:42 PM

I seem to remember a pickle fork tool that was used to decap a Berdan primed case . Is that still available?
I would imagine you would have to decap each case manually,as it would impossible to line up a press correctly each time.
You would have to find some Berdan primers(hopefully non-corrosive) or drill out the center of the case so a boxer primer would work. In the Berdan case the anvil in part of the case and in a Boxer primer the anvil is part of the primer.

Alan Von Ruden · 10-01-2009, 11:28 PM

Thanks to all you guys for the great answers. I'll try to find some loads. Don't want to set up to reload when I will probably sell this gun.
Alan

Alan Von Ruden · 10-01-2009, 11:31 PM

Oh by the way, all this info will go to the fellow who was interested in this gun at the show.
Thanks PhilOhio for the detailed specs. My wife's uncle was a gunsmith and she knows he would have really enjoyed these tips, probably added some himself.
Alan

09-30-2009, 10:17 PM	#1
Alan Von Ruden User Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 5 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	30 ammo howdy. i have had pops lugers for some time now and just recently at a local show found out that I have a "1923 Commercial matched .30 cal" according to the knowledgeabl guy i spoke to. surprise! i did not know about.30 and he said he neve heard of 7.65mm. anyway, how do i get ammo and are reloading goods available? Thanks, Alan.

10-01-2009, 12:08 AM	#2
Mauser720 User Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Kansas Posts: 535 Thanks: 18 Thanked 49 Times in 33 Posts	Alan - I got a case from these folks: www.samcoglobal.com It was all made by Sako and reasonably priced. __________________ Mauser720 - Ron "Those who do not know history are doomed to repeat it."

10-01-2009, 02:51 AM	#3
FNorm Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Colorado Posts: 978 Thanks: 68 Thanked 127 Times in 108 Posts	How does it shoot? Compared to Fiocchi? Midway has the dies. MidwayUSA.com FN Last edited by FNorm; 10-01-2009 at 02:53 AM. Reason: add

10-01-2009, 10:53 AM	#7
Mauser720 User Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Kansas Posts: 535 Thanks: 18 Thanked 49 Times in 33 Posts	FNorm - I have not used Fiocchi. I think the Sako stuff shoots fine and is accurate. Here it is on an FBI "Q" target. A few "fliers" but that's my fault. Attached Thumbnails __________________ Mauser720 - Ron "Those who do not know history are doomed to repeat it."

10-01-2009, 11:55 AM	#10
Mauser720 User Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Kansas Posts: 535 Thanks: 18 Thanked 49 Times in 33 Posts	Ice - I am not much of a reloader, so please take whatever I say "with a grain of salt." The Sako brass is probably Berdan primed since it is my understanding that is what is common in Europe. When I look down inside an empty case, I see two little holes slightly offset from the center of the bottom of the case. I assume that means there is an "anvil" just underneath the primer. It is my understaning that such Berdan primed brass is not considered reloadable. PhilOhio - I know a guy who does reload Berdan primed 6.5 X 55 mm Swedish Mauser. He does this by drilling a small hole in the center of bottom of the case from the inside. Then he pops out the primer with a thin punch. Then he reseats a Boxer primer in the case. He says this works fine in both bolt action Mausers and also his semiautomatic Jungman (not sure of the spelling). Maybe this is a common practice? Or maybe it is safe? Or maybe it is not safe? I don't know. But with your knowledge, I can tell that you would be in a position to know if this is safe or not, etc. __________________ Mauser720 - Ron "Those who do not know history are doomed to repeat it."

10-01-2009, 08:32 AM	#4
Ice User Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Texas Posts: 552 Thanks: 13 Thanked 69 Times in 57 Posts	I can add that the Starline 7.65 Luger cases are excellent. Charlie

10-01-2009, 09:51 AM	#5
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,032 Thanks: 1,018 Thanked 3,873 Times in 1,184 Posts	.30 Luger = .30 Para = .30 Parabellum = 7,65 Parabellum = 7,65 Luger. Straight 7,65mm = .32 ACP (you don't want that).

10-01-2009, 10:05 AM	#6
spartacus38 Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: South Lake Tahoe,CA. Posts: 695 Thanks: 0 Thanked 70 Times in 56 Posts	I have had very good luck with .30 Luger 93 grain FMJ from Fiocchi. Bob

10-01-2009, 11:36 AM	#8
Ice User Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Texas Posts: 552 Thanks: 13 Thanked 69 Times in 57 Posts	Is the Sako brass reloadable? Thx Charlie

10-01-2009, 11:38 AM	#9
PhilOhio User Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Ohio Posts: 145 Thanks: 5 Thanked 17 Times in 14 Posts	Alan, I've gotten heavily into .30 Luger (aka 7.65mm Parabellum) this past month, for my SIG P-210, and have learned a lot. Bore diameter in inches is .3095" nominal. Molds are available for the 93 grain lead bullet, which is ideal. I size it to .311", but had to make my own sizing die to do that. Maybe somebody sells one. The diameter of lead bullets should always be a little larger than for equivalent jacketed bullets, to enhance accuracy and prevent leading, although that may sound counterintuitive. But I think a .308 bullet would be just fine. Lee thinks so, too, as their inexpensive, high quality reloading dies are set up for .308". There seems to be considerable user experience that .308 bullets are quite accurate, but I have not tried that yet. If you make your own cases from .38 Super, 9mm Largo, or something like that, the rims must be turned down slightly on a lathe, to .394". And after forming in the Lee sizing die, you must do whatever is necessary to reduce wall thickness in the neck area to a maximum of .010", or they won't likely chamber. Sized from 9mm brass without thinning, the necks come out at around .015" thick, which won't work. There is not really a significant increase; this is about what the 9mm diameter case mouths were before. But the whole thing is too much of a hassle, I decided after working my way through a bag of 100 new .38 Super cases. Best way is to simply buy Starline or Winchester .30 Luger cases. The latter have a wall thickness of exactly .010" in the neck. They also use an empty case OAL of .840", which is good. Reloading books say trim to .845", but Winchester's number is better. So yes, everything you need for reloading is available, and that is by far the best way to go, unless you are made of money. And also, lead bullet reloads put just about zero wear on the bore of a valuable antique pistol. With lead bullets, hold velocity to about 1000 to 1100 FPS and use any good bullet lube. Your bore will not lead up, unless you go way too high on velocity, and .30 Luger was never intended for velocities and pressures in the higher range of the .30 Mauser anyway. Many powders are fine; Unique, Bullseye, W231, etc. I like W231, max 4.2 grains with the 93 grain bullet.

10-01-2009, 03:57 PM	#11
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,150 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	IMHO I would not consider this case drilling method safe. The Berdan design case has a built in anvil. To eliminate it by drilling would be too large a flash hole IMHO. Berdan cases CAN be reload with Berdan primers and the appropriate tools. Those that I have know who have reloaded these types of cases generall decap their fired cased by filling the cases with water, and then using a round tightly fitting punch the hydraulically push out the fired primers by placing the case over an appropriately sized hole in a steel plate and whacking the punch with a good hammer. __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

10-01-2009, 05:22 PM	#12
DavidJayUden Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 4,047 Thanks: 578 Thanked 1,414 Times in 887 Posts	And that, my friends, is a great way to get a bath. I also have a tool called a Hydro-punch that apparently incorporates hydraulic water pressure to decap Berdan primers. I got it with a .450 Nitro but with BELL brass being available it was easier to shelve the Kynoch stuff and load with boxer Federal 215 primers. Never heard of drilling a center hole. I actually thought that the primer cavities were of different size. Anyway, there is enough boxer brass out there to load with, or shoot Berdan and let it lie. Heck, you'll probably loose half of them each time you shoot anyway. DJU

10-01-2009, 08:42 PM	#13
saab-bob User Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: So Cal Posts: 459 Thanks: 774 Thanked 143 Times in 87 Posts	I seem to remember a pickle fork tool that was used to decap a Berdan primed case . Is that still available? I would imagine you would have to decap each case manually,as it would impossible to line up a press correctly each time. You would have to find some Berdan primers(hopefully non-corrosive) or drill out the center of the case so a boxer primer would work. In the Berdan case the anvil in part of the case and in a Boxer primer the anvil is part of the primer. __________________ "I think,therefore I own guns"

10-01-2009, 11:28 PM	#14
Alan Von Ruden User Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 5 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Thanks to all. Thanks to all you guys for the great answers. I'll try to find some loads. Don't want to set up to reload when I will probably sell this gun. Alan

10-01-2009, 11:31 PM	#15
Alan Von Ruden User Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 5 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	ps Oh by the way, all this info will go to the fellow who was interested in this gun at the show. Thanks PhilOhio for the detailed specs. My wife's uncle was a gunsmith and she knows he would have really enjoyed these tips, probably added some himself. Alan