AE1906 Frame comparison

[Conny]

Gentlemen, I've been looking for salvagable AE1906 for transfer to the carbine frame I bought. I am not nearly as good as determining the frame type as you guys and I want to make sure the type I buy will transfer correctly.

The link below is to the AE1906 in question and my frame photo is below that. Have I chosen correctly? I appreciate your input. Thank you.

http://www.collectorsfirearms.com/ad...hp?itemID=8895

[G.T.]

Hi to all, It looks like a carbine frame originally made by Mr. John V. Martz.. But I can garrentee you it never came out of his shop like that!!! Fire?? Flood?? it probably started life as a 1906... although he did convert some leaf sprinf 1900's to 06 type coil spring... best to all, til...lat'r....GT

[Conny]

Thank you for the reply GT. It has not been in a fire, flood or anything else. If it were a Martz conversion or damaged, wouldn't the stampings under the side plate and overall condition still be better after a complete restoration?

It is listed in the Data Base #55029 as AE converted to carbine. The book by Aaron Davis under 1902 carbine serial number range states, "21,200 to 22,100 and 23,450 to 24,900. Some straglers from 30,000 to 69,000 (probably special orders)". Also, it states under the Interesting Variations section, "Examples exist with an American Eagle on the chamber. These command a premium from the US collectors".

Now everyone here knows I am NOT an expert but, the serial number falls within the range and is listed as having an American Eagle on the chamber. I seriously doubt a collector or buyer would take an original AE and have it converted to carbine rather than buy a carbine outright considering costs involved to convert. But again, I am not an expert and only have one book for reference thus far. I'll stay to my deductions until I research proof otherwise but I believe it was converted to 1902 carbine because the serail number does not fall in the 1920 carbine serial number range what-so-ever. But, if being a late 1902 it probably had flat checkered toggles and was more like the 1920 model. I'll continue researching. Thank you again GT.

[G.T.]

Hi Conny, I didn't look at the serial, but the stamps that I was interpreting as JVM stamps were the ones in the ovals, as he marks all his guns this way... JVM made several if not most, of his carbines using 1900 or 1906 grip safety guns...(they weren't that expensive 20 years ago!) But if the frame is not cut for the Martz safety toggle release (M.S.T.R.), then maybe it's just a coincidence... as he might have used this method to make / mark them in the same fashion as the originals... but alas, i'm not too familier with any carbines of the original Luger family ...soooo, the jurys still out on it! best to you, til...lat'r....GT

[Conny]

I agree too that the jury is still out on this one but I'm hoping with additional reference books, it will become more clear. Like I said, this is what I have deduced thus far by superficial research and speaking with Bob Adams numerous times about this. Either way, it will be rebuilt as a carbine at some point. Thanks for your responses.

[Conny]

I have been trying to call Mr. Martz all day to review the frame serial number but the line has been busy. When I did finally get through, it was a wrong number (916) 645-2250. Does anyone have an up to date number to Mr. Martz?

[Ray]

I have a 1920 navy carbine with serial number 37,xxx that has a
different forearm iron attachment than your frame. I classify 1902 carbines as having the S shape main spring and 1920s with the coil spring. I would agree with GT that your carbine frame appears like the work of John Martz. Incidently, I have a 1906 luger with serial number 38,000 that has the short thin underside frame front that Ron Woods refers to as type IV.
Your phone number for Mr. Martz is what I have in my file, I also have
a FAX number of (916) 645-3815 and an address of 8060 Lakeview Lane
Lincoln, CA 95648.

[Conny]

OK GT. You were correct and I was hopeful. The frame was modified by Mr. Martz in 1981 with a 13" barrel. He also used an American Eagle Luger #55029 for conversion. It was in .30Cal.

I'm a little bummed (no Holy Grail here) but still love my luger carbine frame. Now that it's straight, still looking for the extinct 30cm barrel for rebuilding to carbine. Is it illegal to have a reproduction 30cm barrel made for it without getting into Class II or III?

Thanks GT. Your response helped me settle this in my own mind.

[lugerholsterrepair]

Conny, The frame was modified by Mr. Martz in 1981 with a 13" barrel.
I gotta tell you, them Mexicans are rough on guns! This comes out of John Martz's shop as a complete Carbine and in only 26 short years looks like this!

Is it illegal to have a reproduction 30cm barrel made for it without getting into Class II or III?
Interesting question...Jerry Burney

[Conny]

I have been thinking the same thing.... only 26 years. Probably stolen because I don't believe it could have been imported into Mexico and if it could be imported, who could afford it?

My dilemma now is: Restore to carbine and worry about legality OR knock the extention off and build a nice shooter OR buy that nice shooter Mr. Tinker has for sale OR just keep the frame as a lesson in stupidity and trust.

[Ron Wood]

Lots of folks in Mexico could afford it, there is some real money down there. If it only had a 13" barrel, it would have to be owned someplace other than the US (legally).

This frame cannot be "restored" to a carbine with a 30cm barrel, because it was not originally a carbine. If you wish to re-construct a carbine with this frame, it will have to have a 41cm barrel to avoid classification as a "short barrled rifle" requiring registration and tax. That is why Mr. Martz makes his US carbines with a 16 1/2" barrel.

[G.T.]

Hi Conny, It looked pretty familiar! But, not to worry, if you rebuild it into a restored JVM carbine you still have a real nice gun! Best part about it is you can make it in any configuration you want! As long as you meet the barrel length restriction... His carbines command a premium tag all on there own, of course it would be a restored, remade Luger, but it would be a great shooter with quite a history! Best to you, til....lat'r....GT

[Conny]

Thank you all for your input. I'm just going to put it in my gun cabinet and every time I see it think how stupid I am. Nothing teaches a lesson more than the waste of money. Besides, I have a new paperweight now. Optimism at its best.

If I can't find a nice luger in Chantilly this weekend, I may buy the nice shooter Ed has for sale if still available.

Thank again to all. I think it's time to take a break, reevaluate what has happened, reacess finances then go cry.

[Ray]

I am confused by Ron's statement that a 12" barrel cannot be put on
your carbine frame. I thought that was only the case if a shoulder
stock was attached to it. What about all the ordinary lugers that have
had barrel replacements. Does changing out a 4" barrel with a 6 or 8
inch barrel also constitute an illegal gun because it has the stock iron
and the barrel length is less than 16"? I've heard that having a luger
shoulder stock and a collection of 4" lugers with stock iron is OK just
as long as the stock is not attached to the 4" luger. I think that this
question of a 30cm barrel put on a luger needs clarification from the ATF.
Does the fact that Conny's frame have a forearm iron make the long barrel
installation anymore illegal. What if he put a 6" barrel on the frame is
that illegal. What's the difference in legality between a 15 and 30cm
bbl on the frame. Both are less than the 16" legal limit for a shoulder
stock.

[Ron Wood]

Ray,
Technically, you are correct. I was assuming that eventually a restoration/rebuild of this piece would include a shoulder stock. If it never is mated up with a stock, then it would be legal with the shorter barrel.

With respect to your comment about a collection of 4" Lugers and having a stock but not attaching it, technically (legally), if you own a Luger shoulder stock and 4" barrel Lugers you must also have the correct corresponding Arty/Navy/Carbine Luger in your collection. The presumption is that possession of a stock implys the installation on a gun, whether or not that is ever actually performed. If you do not have a Luger of the proper type for the stock, then you are in possession of the components of a short barrel rifle.

[Conny]

Ray,
Ron is correct. the carbine frame I have did not start as a carbine but was converted. The BATF does have a list of what year lugers are allowed to have a shoulder stock attached. The list does include the carbine models, Naval models, Browning HP, Broomhandles, etc. I was hopeful it was a late production model carbine but that is not the case. To me, any carbine with a 16" barrel is a rifle.

I stated ealier that if not a legitimate carbine frame, I'd cut it so no one has to ever deal with this again in the future. I'm going to just monitor the forum and see what's available on the gun web pages until something cathes my fancy.

Ray, I appreciate your emails and support of my project but the project is dead. Thank you sir.

[Heinz]

Duane, A John Martz carbine has a collector value all it's own. It should not be cut up and I think it could be traded as it is. It is clearly marked as a Martz product even though it has seem some rough times.

[Ray]

Thanks for the clarification Ron on the stock.