22 conversion kits

[hayhugh]

I have two, but not for sale. Just to let you know one is for the .30 luger and one for the 9mm. Make sure you get what you want.

[ithacaartist]

I have an SE-08 that I'm tired of. It is for 9mm, 4" bbl. With the included custom spacer sleeve I made, it has been installed in my 6" 29/70 Mauser. It is complete with original green cardboard box, and is missing only the cleaning rod and literature that might have accompanied it. I'd let 'er go for $550, shipped. Let me know if you want pics.

David Parker

[John Sabato]

I have never seen one made for the .30 caliber Luger... Could you please post some photos of your two kits??... I would bet that the barrel for the .30 caliber conversion must be pretty darn slim! .311" for .30 caliber, minus .224" for the .22LR, sure doesn't leave much metal thickness for the barrel sleeve, eh !

[hayhugh]

Will post photos when I get back to Fl. next month.

[ithacaartist]

Originally Posted by John Sabato

I have never seen one made for the .30 caliber Luger... Could you please post some photos of your two kits??... I would bet that the barrel for the .30 caliber conversion must be pretty darn slim! .311" for .30 caliber, minus .224" for the .22LR, sure doesn't leave much metal thickness for the barrel sleeve, eh !

I have only heard mention of the .30 Luger variety, and vaguely recall reading something about it's fitting both calibers. As you point out, its walls would be pretty thin, and I also wonder what it would do under pressure of firing. I think it would be OK snugly installed in a 7.65 mm bore, as it would be supported, at least by the lands in the bbl. But an unsupported, skinny wall? This question is certainly justified--40-45 thousandths ain't much! The kits were more popular in Europe, I think, in part because of restrictions on the number of pistols one can own in certain countries. I hope Gerben and Mauro see this and have an answer.

[sheepherder]

Originally Posted by John Sabato

I have never seen one made for the .30 caliber Luger... Could you please post some photos of your two kits??... I would bet that the barrel for the .30 caliber conversion must be pretty darn slim! .311" for .30 caliber, minus .224" for the .22LR, sure doesn't leave much metal thickness for the barrel sleeve, eh !

I get .043" wall thickness for the 30 barrel insert...No reason it shouldn't work, I'd think...It would be supported full length...And not all that much pressure...

But these 'kits' are definitely ugly when installed...

(A paperclip is .035"...Add two thicknesses of lined notebook paper and you've got .043")...

[ithacaartist]

Originally Posted by sheepherder

I get .043" wall thickness for the 30 barrel insert...No reason it shouldn't work, I'd think...It would be supported full length...And not all that much pressure...

But these 'kits' are definitely ugly when installed...

(A paperclip is .035"...Add two thicknesses of lined notebook paper and you've got .043")...

Rich, thanks for tightening up the math--I did the subtraction and did an estimate of the half. Theoretically, it would be a bit less if you're measuring the bottoms of the grooves. And .035, to me means MIG wire! I know the rest of the action of one of these probably wouldn't hold up for very long using them, but if it were the 6" liner, would you worry about running CCI Stingers through one? This round is responsible for three broken front toggles on three different 60s' Erma .22s.

[sheepherder]

Originally Posted by ithacaartist

Rich, thanks for tightening up the math--I did the subtraction and did an estimate of the half. Theoretically, it would be a bit less if you're measuring the bottoms of the grooves.

You are right - I used John Sabato's dimensions. D'OH!!!

I get ..299" [7.6mm] for my 'insert diameter' (actual measurement). And with .224" bullet diameter [bottom of groove], that gives .037" wall thickness for the 30 cal insert.

Paper clip thickness.

BTW: Here's a pic of the 9mm/.22LR conversion 'kit' that I dug up somewhere, showing all parts.

[sheepherder]

Originally Posted by ithacaartist

...would you worry about running CCI Stingers through one? This round is responsible for three broken front toggles on three different 60s' Erma .22s.

I usually only shoot Remington 'Target' 22LR, bought by the brick. Because of the ammunition freeze, I could only get Remington Viper Hyper Velocity 22's, which my Ruger does not like. But even with that, I could only buy 2 boxes [100rds]. My LGS still has no ammunition shipments coming in since UPS now charges a Hazardous Shipment charge [$40] IN ADDITION to their regular shipping charges. And the distributors aren't ordering it.

Short answer - I've never tried it.

[sheepherder]

Originally Posted by ithacaartist

...CCI Stingers...

Dave, is there any physical difference in Stinger dimension from a 'standard' .22 Long Rifle??? I am just reading here that the .22 rimfire is the only round with a bullet diameter the same as the case diameter...So the chamber depth is greater than in a centerfire cartridge. To cut a .22 LR chamber you have to add the bullet 'shoulder' length to the case length, minus the rim width...Because the .22 LR headspaces on the inside of the rim...And the headspace is kinda critical because if there's not enough, it goes "brrrrppppppp"...

I'm trying to measure the chamber depth in my .22's but the case wall is so thin and I only have a 7/32" drill bit to slide down the chamber...I can't get a good measurement...Somewhere around .761" is what I get...

[sheepherder]

Originally Posted by Edward Tinker

I should get me one of those oh, I have one

The guy who owns this one wants me to shorten the barrel insert, so it ends at the muzzle...

I'm almost done...Got the shortened insert threaded...Just have to make a nut...

[sheepherder]

Originally Posted by ithacaartist

I know the rest of the action of one of these probably wouldn't hold up for very long using them, but if it were the 6" liner, would you worry about running CCI Stingers through one?

Dave, I'm thinking that back when Erma made these conversions, the .22 LR cartridges were pretty puny compared to Hyper Velocity .22's of today...they had to add that extra 1 1/2" to the .22 barrel insert to get the toggle to function with the lower pressure cartridges back then...Now, that Stinger would be too much pressure for the full-length .22 barrel insert...Shortening it should bleed off enough pressure to let it toggle the action but not hammer the crap out of it...

[ithacaartist]

Hmmm...

OAL of a Stinger is basically the same, however case length is approx. 0.10 longer. The 32 gr bullet (v. 40 gr) would be a tad shorter, right? The conversion is s blow-back action--how would this affect pressure in the barrel? The Stingers were effective in breaking toggles in both the 4" and 12" barreled models. CCI Velocitors' velocity is in between Stingers and Mini-Mags, so that's another choice, if you think the shortened liner would work with them. I'll never again use anything more potent than the Mini-Mags in these Ermas, whether pistol or kit.

This kit in your pic is the SE-08/2, which has the knurled toggle knobs--much more attractive than the stubs of the earlier models. It reverts, however, to the replacement ejector v. feed lip ejector, and the replacement axle with its bushings, as in the versions made up until the end of WWII.

The shortened liner setup does look a little less goofy.

Here's a pic of mine. The other pic is my Ibanez P-bass knock-off, finally complete. It was missing the "ashtray" covers when I bought it 20 some years ago. The frets were literally falling out, and I installed new ones and leveled them, then had the Ithaca Guitar Works crown them and do the final setup. I had looked for replacement covers back then, to no avail, at the local shops--one even specialized in vintage stuff, and the Ibanez dealer couldn't help either. The internet makes such searches a lot easier, and I was able to come up with a OEM set by Fender for twenty bucks shipped, in about ten minutes.

[sheepherder]

Originally Posted by ithacaartist

Hmmm...

OAL of a Stinger is basically the same, however case length is approx. 0.10 longer.

So the Stinger is actually longer than a .22 Long Rifle??? Here's the SAAMI print; cartridge on top, chamber on bottom. The bullet is the same diameter as the case so the [smoothbore] chamber is longer than say a 9mm Luger chamber...To accommodate the same-diameter-as-case bullet...

So a Stinger chamber would have to be longer than a Long Rifle chamber, to accommodate the longer case + bullet...

And it stands to reason that if a Stinger is longer, it won't fit in a .22 LR chamber...Like a Ruger Mk II...

[sheepherder]

Dave, that .22 conversion unit of yours is quite different from the 4" unit that I have here...Obviously the barrel insert is longer [lots longer] but the toggle assembly is completely different...

Without the spacer, the insert I have here would just barely fit a 5 1/4" barrel...Which would be a 130+mm Luger 9mm barrel...If there ever was such a thing...

The 'cocked' indicator is a hoot...

[ithacaartist]

Stinger in silver case and copper plated HP 32 gr. bullet 1640 fps v. Remington Target in brass, 40 gr.LRN 1150 fps. OAL 1.182 and 1.186. respectively. The shape of the end of the slug makes the Stinger look longer, and maybe foreshortening in the pic.

The case is what's longer, but since the round's O.D. is constant overall, as mentioned, this would not require chamber mod. They are labeled 22lr and chamber just fine.

You're right, the rod sticking out the back when the sear is set is funky. It would indicate that it's cocked, but not indicate whether there is a round in the chamber.

Without the adapter sleeve my liner would fit a barrel around 7" long, stopping short of being OK for an Arty barrel.

[sheepherder]

I took a ride down to my LGS and he agrees: .22LR chambers will fit a Stinger. That's cool, because I have a .22LR chambering reamer coming.

I also bought a box of .22LR 'Aguila' Super Extra [with label on box 'Eley Prime', whatever that means], 50 rd box @ $5.00. He had one brick of that come in from distributor, and a brick of .22 Subsonic ammunition, that looked like a .22 short with a real long bullet. I didn't think that would work any .22 action I have, so I left that alone. (I don't have any bolt action .22's or revolvers).

I was thinking that the Erma barrel inserts are longer than the Luger barrels because it would take longer to build up the pressure to toggle the action than if they made it the same length as the Luger barrel...

Dave - Does your Erma toggle have a model number on it??? This one says 'SE 08/2'...

Edit: I went back and bought a box of the 'Sniper Subsonic' .22's...Looks like a .22 short to me!!!

(And in the 15 minutes I was gone, someone came in and bought the rest of the .22LR brick)...

[Edward Tinker]

I did a search last night -

[rhuff]

Originally Posted by sheepherder

I took a ride down to my LGS and he agrees: .22LR chambers will fit a Stinger. That's cool, because I have a .22LR chambering reamer coming.

I also bought a box of .22LR 'Aguila' Super Extra [with label on box 'Eley Prime', whatever that means], 50 rd box @ $5.00. He had one brick of that come in from distributor, and a brick of .22 Subsonic ammunition, that looked like a .22 short with a real long bullet. I didn't think that would work any .22 action I have, so I left that alone. (I don't have any bolt action .22's or revolvers).

I was thinking that the Erma barrel inserts are longer than the Luger barrels because it would take longer to build up the pressure to toggle the action than if they made it the same length as the Luger barrel...

Dave - Does your Erma toggle have a model number on it??? This one says 'SE 08/2'...

Edit: I went back and bought a box of the 'Sniper Subsonic' .22's...Looks like a .22 short to me!!!

(And in the 15 minutes I was gone, someone came in and bought the rest of the .22LR brick)...

This is the first time I have ever seen a subsonic cartridge with a bullet like that. I have a couple of different brands of subsonic .22 ammo here, and the bullet on them looks like a normal 40gr bullet. Interesting!!.

[ithacaartist]

Originally Posted by rhuff

This is the first time I have ever seen a subsonic cartridge with a bullet like that. I have a couple of different brands of subsonic .22 ammo here, and the bullet on them looks like a normal 40gr bullet. Interesting!!.

I think these slugs are around 60 gr., which helps diminish the velocity to somewhere in the vicinity of 1000 fps, + or -.

Originally Posted by sheepherder

...[with label on box 'Eley Prime', whatever that means]....22 Subsonic ammunition, that looked like a .22 short with a real long bullet. I didn't think that would work any .22 action I have,

Dave - Does your Erma toggle have a model number on it??? This one says 'SE 08/2'...

Ely is another ammo manufacturer. I think Aguila gets primed brass from them, or at least uses Ely's formula, probably under license. The various ammo makers' arrangements and manifestations seem a bit incestuous at times...

Since bullet and case of any .22lr share the same O.D, it should be no problem. It's the OAL that matters; I'm presuming that where the cone/taper/roundness ends on of all of their bullets is engineered to appear at the same distance from the rim, and thus will all fit in the .22lr chamber.

Nope, just "Erma" in a circle on the breech block. There is a groove in the top surface of the front toggle link which precludes placement of anything stamped there. Mine is the SE-08 model, immediate precursor of yours, and they are both post-war in vintage.

Ed, the Mini-Mag data on this sheet is for the HP, which my pistols don't seem to like, failures to feed. Different muzzle velocity than the CPRN, too--a bit faster, 'cause it's a 36 gr.