Unusual Swiss Pistol

[Parusky]

Dear Members,

I need your help in identifying this Swiss Luger? that is a bit unusual in that it has two canons with two different barrel lengths. It has been suggested that this is a custom modified target gun from Switzerland. But who really knows? I do know that there is nothing like a Luger collectorsâ?? response to a mystery gun.




First, the frame. The only externally visible markings are on the front of the frame and show #2195 with a small â??GERMANYâ?� off struck under. Below this is a Gothic â??Aâ?� letter. The safety area is not marked at all. The area under the safety is milled which can be seen with the safety in the safe position. The safety itself has some heavy pitting on the exposed surface and may not be original. With the grips removed there are no marks under the right grip panel. Under the left, there are two and they are at the very bottom of the straps. The front strap has a â??Câ?� and the back has a â??Sâ?�. The gun is coil sprung. The takedown latch knob portion has been machine removed and is numbered â??56â?� and happens to match canon #1â??s serialization. The transfer cover plate also do not match with a â??86â?? number in its center.

Canon #1 has a 6â?� barrel attached. This barrel has 4 lands and grooves and is fairly bright. I has a steep and short step with little overall contour. There is a �¾â?� long integral sight pediment on the front of the barrel short about �¼â?� from the end and is shallow steeped. This pediment has a further step milled rectangular support dovetail milled for the front sight. The barrel crown is superficially deburred and the barrel origins are almost square. There is no witness mark on the barrel although there is one on the bottom of the canon. The cannon itself has a vertically oriented crown over N proof on the left flat, and a upside down poorly stamped â??MADE IN GERMANYâ?� that has half the imprint. There are no serials on the sear or ejector. The are two inspection marks on the bottom of the right narrow flat behind the guide rail, a Gothic â??Câ?? and a very small â??Iâ??. The toggle/ bolt assembly is a fully matching â??56â?? on the bolt, extractor, first link and on the back of the toggle and is DWM stamped on top. The proof mark on the left rear of the bolt looks like a Saguaro Cactus with legs. It has a vertical component with two arms and a flowing pedestal. Whose proof is this?

Canon #2 has a 9 �¾â?� barrel attached. This barrel has 7 lands/grooves with a decidedly slower twist that barrel #1. The step at the receiver seat is smaller in diameter than the other and the taper is relatively constant to the front sight support. This pediment is very crude and does not surround the circumference. It appears that there was once a dovetail that has been welded up and the sight is a crude flat blade and has been brazed/soldered onto the pediment. The crown angle is a bit better than the other but is also very shallow. The canon itself has the Swiss Cross and sunburst shield over the chamber, a horizontal crown over N and the serial # 2195 on the left flat. I also has the inspectors marks of a â??Iâ?? and a definite â??0â?? on the bottom left. This canon has no other parts but readily will accept the other slide toggle and linkage and will easily mount the frame. Again no witness marks on the barrel but does have one on the receiver.

I acquired the gun from my friend the famous â??early dayâ??sâ?� gunsmith Austin Behlertâ??s shop when it was just taken over by his son-in-law Art Leckie in 1988 or so. Art had received a consignment from the estate of a collector/gunsmith from upstate New York to market. It had mostly old rifles of every size and shape, a few shotguns, and two Lugers. There were at least 10 Lee Straight pull Navyâ??s and a pile of BSA falling blocks all with original cases of ammunition. Neither Austin nor Art could guess on the origin or basis for this Luger other than it had two major Swiss parts and was missing the original Swiss bolt and toggle. Neither of them had any interest in what they called junk. They thought the old gent might have made these a gunsmithâ??s special.

I have fired the gun one time after purchase both with commercial and reloaded .30 Luger ammo and it is a tack driver at fifty yards when you get used to the creepy trigger and over travel and rudimentary sights. It functions fine and ejected the empties into a nice little pile. It is well regulated however and shoots to point of aim at that distance. The cases reloaded with little effort. I have never really cleaned it and there is a bit of rust. The mag is a nickel plated and unmarked wooden bottom. There is quite a lot of old dried up grease and crap in the action that I have left alone while occasionally wondering what to do with this weapon. I have other collector grade Lugers and never gave this one much thought. I had a two cannon set done for me on an early Stainless Steel Mitchell, one in 6â?� and one 4â?� fitted to the same frame and was promised to get an 8â?� version at some time. This gun gave me the idea.

The question is what do I have here and what do I do with it? Does anyone know when it was made? The condition is such and the mismatched such that Iâ??m considering a restoration of the Swiss cannon to original and fit the other cannon with a 9mm longer barrel with swappable springs. At this point i see little collector value? Any suggestions or ideas?

Thanks for listening and any help.

[Dwight Gruber]

Dave,

It will be useful to see good closeups of all the markings on the pistol, including both recievers and the frame.

--Dwight

[Edward Tinker]

Dave, welcome to the forum!


Just a WAG, but guns like this came to the US in the 1920's and 1930's through Pacific Arms, they had barrel sizes made to order and also they called them "interchangeable" barrels...

Ed

[Pete Ebbink]

Maybe this gun started out life as one similar for sale on the Simpson LTD site...the Swiss cross/sunburst on the chamber is interesting along with the "germany" stamping.

This one has the Artillery "notch"...maybe a left over receiver from the end of WWI.

A receiver with the Swiss cross/sunburst could indicate a left-over part from the M1906 Swiss production run...

http://www.simpsonltd.com/product_in...oducts_id=2268

[John Sabato]

First of all, welcome to the Lugerforum...

IMHO, from your description of the cannons, their photos, and the history of their origin you have related, I would classify this Luger as a classic parts gun, assembled by one of the "early gunsmith" days tinkerers (no relationship to Ed above of course) and of no particular collector value,
...and the barrels appear to have been made from surplus rifle barrels... An interesting pair to be sure, but you don't have to treat them with kid gloves.

While is is true that Pacific Arms did install different length barrels on request, all of the examples that I have seen still followed the "standard" Luger barrel contours, and neither of these barrels exhibits that...

Enjoy shooting them... and please post close-up photos of the various stamps on the parts to satisfy the curiosity of the membership....

[Parusky]

Gentlemen,

Thanks for the prompt response and informative comments. I can add that the original owner was a ballistic experimenter and had many wildcat cartridges. It could be that he was also talented enough to do these barrels.

The chambers ae tight indicating a new reamer and are well finished. Can't say the same about the crowns or sight pillars. There are noticeable jaws marks on both barrels.

I will provide closeups in the near future as the condition prompted me to do an Ed's Red soak and tooth brush of the whole thing and that will take a few days to get them clean. The some 0000 Steel wool with Blue Wonder.

The fact is that I do have a decent base with a matching Swiss Frame and Receiver. The frame needs a lock and sideplate and probably a safety switch. The Swiss receiver needs a sear assy, and extractor and toggle along with a barrel. Might as well make it a 9mm while I am at it. The big question then is finding the correct parts and a restorer? Does this make sense?

Anything on the serialization of the Swiss gun?

Thanks again for all of your kind and generous time in helping me out.

[Pete Ebbink]

Dave,

A 4-digit w/suffix serial number was not in the Swiss contract luger runs (either Ordnance or commercial issue)...I think your gun was surplus WWI inventory re-issued in the Weimar period as an 'alphabet luger'...

Swiss chamber marking could have been from a left over Swiss contract receiver fork or a receiver that went to Switzerland for a shooter and was stamped by a local gunsmith...but the Germany indicates importation from Germany to the USA...

Your luger has done much traveling in its life...

[Parusky]

Dear Pete,

Thanks much for that important info. It tells me that this is not a matched set and is truly a put together and can never be represented to the "knowing" as even a restored Swiss. May I correctly assume that the receiver since it has that same number and a grip safety is also a German product also?

I now realize how little I know about these devils. I also know why I have shied away from really collecting them based on the time required become a RKI.

I recognize the import markings for what they are. I have had a ton of GI bring backs of many weapons without them.

[Pete Ebbink]

Hi Dave,

All of the early Swiss lugers were actually German made by DWM...both the M1900 Swiss luger and the two M1906 Swiss lugers.

It was not until 1918 that the Swiss at the Bern arsenal started making their own version of the M1906 W+F Bern luger that one can say it was truly a Swiss-made luger. Same for the Swiss M1929 W+F Bern luger.

The 4-digit serial number with a letter suffix was the German military way of serializing lugers each year and some of those could have been left over after WWI and issued as yours as an "alphabet luger" of the 1920's Weimar era.

I agree that the barrels are probably a gunsmith's modification...maybe in the 1950-60's...

I still think they would make great lugers for shooting and you should enjoy them as such !

[The Virginian]

With the Ed's Red use Chore-By Copper mesh used for cleaning pots, it will not scratch or hurt the bluing like steel wool. Chore-Boy is about $2.00 at the grocery store.

[Lugerdoc]

Dave, I agree with the comments of John S & Pete above ---- shoot & enjoy, as no collector value. Unually a M1906 grip safety frame with just have a 5 digit numeric serial, but yours may have been renumbered. Also, the receiver marked "made in germany" were not marked that way until 1923 & later. I have all of the parts that you seek and price will vary with condition. In this case, I wouldn't suggest paying a premium for parts with a minty original finish. hellerarms@webtv.net