Swiss Luger Improvements?

Michael Zeleny · 07-22-2008, 08:01 PM

Is the W+F M1906/29 improved in strength, accuracy, or reliability over its predecessors?

Ron Wood · 07-22-2008, 08:34 PM

I don't believe so. The primary goals were ease of manufacture and decreased cost. There may have been an improvement in strength due to more up to date metallurgy, but I don't know for sure.

John Sabato · 07-22-2008, 10:49 PM

I agree with Ron. The 'improvements' were the result of reduction of costs in production by simplifying machine setups and decreasing milling operations... witness the sideplate full length projection boss over the trigger lever and the rounded front on the upper receiver. They ultimately even eliminated the checkering/embossing of the toggle knobs... and the safety lever...

RGMCE · 07-23-2008, 10:23 AM

While the simplified 06/29 is a rather homely gun, it and the earlier mis-labeled 06/24 have an improved trigger pull which made them popular in post-war European competition shooting. The 06/29 with custom sights set several records at the time. For a description of the trigger modifications, see Harry E. Jones,'Luger Variation', pg.7-8. Personally, my 06/24 is a favorite shooter, albeit an expensive one given the ammunition. One interesting note is Swiss steel hardness tested on a Rockwell B scale was notably softer than various DWM, Simson, Mauser & Krieghoff samples according to Randall Gibson in 'The Krieghoff Parabellum'. The '29 is something of an orphan with most Luger collectors, however people collect Edsels and Henry J's. I'm told. Regards to all, Dick McE.

RGMCE · 07-23-2008, 11:02 AM

Correction: The book is 'Luger Variations', first published in 1959, last in 1975 by the author privately. It's full of personal observations based on hands-on experience with many rare guns including a genuine .45 Test Luger. Along with Fred Datig's book it was one of the pioneers in Luger research.

Vlim · 07-23-2008, 12:53 PM

One of the cost-cutting measures was to finetune the Swiss M1929 for use of the 7,65mm Para round and it's softer recoil only, so reinforcements that made their way into DWM's 9mm design were never implemented in the Swiss versions.

It's probably one of the reasons why the Swiss abandoned the idea of developing a 9mm version. Too much redesigning needed.

Michael Zeleny · 07-23-2008, 01:18 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by G. van Vlimmeren
One of the cost-cutting measures was to finetune the Swiss M1929 for use of the 7,65mm Para round and it's softer recoil only, so reinforcements that made their way into DWM's 9mm design were never implemented in the Swiss versions.

Would you please spell out this lack of reinforcements?

Are you suggesting that a DWM 7.65 P08 is stronger than a Swiss M1929?

Mauser720 · 07-23-2008, 01:29 PM

Michael -

I have sent you a private Email.

Mauser720 - Ron

Vlim · 07-23-2008, 01:34 PM

Hi Michael,

Actually, yes, there is a good chance, but it needs some further investigation

The 9mm versions appear to have some 'meat' or weight added to the rear end of the grip piece. These reinforcements have been described in other threads before. These changes most likely made it into DWM's .30 luger versions of the same era as well.

We also now know, after speaking with former Mauser engineers who were connected to the development of the 1970s Mauser Parabellum, that they had a lot of problems to create a decent 9mm version based on their .30 luger / Swiss inspired model, because of these Swiss changes. Can't give too many specific details, as more will be revealed in an upcoming book on the Post-War Mauser Parabellum.

07-22-2008, 08:01 PM	#1
Michael Zeleny Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 525 Thanks: 129 Thanked 138 Times in 76 Posts	Swiss Luger Improvements? Is the W+F M1906/29 improved in strength, accuracy, or reliability over its predecessors? __________________ Michael Zeleny@post.harvard.edu -- http://larvatus.livejournal.com/ -- 7576 Willow Glen Road, Los Angeles, CA 90046 -- 323.363.1860 All of old. Nothing else ever. Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail better. -- Samuel Beckett

07-22-2008, 08:34 PM	#2
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 6,986 Thanks: 1,065 Thanked 5,088 Times in 1,674 Posts	I don't believe so. The primary goals were ease of manufacture and decreased cost. There may have been an improvement in strength due to more up to date metallurgy, but I don't know for sure. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

07-22-2008, 10:49 PM	#3
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,150 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	I agree with Ron. The 'improvements' were the result of reduction of costs in production by simplifying machine setups and decreasing milling operations... witness the sideplate full length projection boss over the trigger lever and the rounded front on the upper receiver. They ultimately even eliminated the checkering/embossing of the toggle knobs... and the safety lever... __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

07-23-2008, 01:29 PM	#8
Mauser720 User Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Kansas Posts: 535 Thanks: 18 Thanked 49 Times in 33 Posts	Michael - I have sent you a private Email. Mauser720 - Ron __________________ Mauser720 - Ron "Those who do not know history are doomed to repeat it."

07-23-2008, 10:23 AM	#4
RGMCE User Join Date: May 2008 Location: Richmond, VA Posts: 30 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	While the simplified 06/29 is a rather homely gun, it and the earlier mis-labeled 06/24 have an improved trigger pull which made them popular in post-war European competition shooting. The 06/29 with custom sights set several records at the time. For a description of the trigger modifications, see Harry E. Jones,'Luger Variation', pg.7-8. Personally, my 06/24 is a favorite shooter, albeit an expensive one given the ammunition. One interesting note is Swiss steel hardness tested on a Rockwell B scale was notably softer than various DWM, Simson, Mauser & Krieghoff samples according to Randall Gibson in 'The Krieghoff Parabellum'. The '29 is something of an orphan with most Luger collectors, however people collect Edsels and Henry J's. I'm told. Regards to all, Dick McE.

07-23-2008, 11:02 AM	#5
RGMCE User Join Date: May 2008 Location: Richmond, VA Posts: 30 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Correction: The book is 'Luger Variations', first published in 1959, last in 1975 by the author privately. It's full of personal observations based on hands-on experience with many rare guns including a genuine .45 Test Luger. Along with Fred Datig's book it was one of the pioneers in Luger research.

07-23-2008, 12:53 PM	#6
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,031 Thanks: 1,018 Thanked 3,873 Times in 1,184 Posts	One of the cost-cutting measures was to finetune the Swiss M1929 for use of the 7,65mm Para round and it's softer recoil only, so reinforcements that made their way into DWM's 9mm design were never implemented in the Swiss versions. It's probably one of the reasons why the Swiss abandoned the idea of developing a 9mm version. Too much redesigning needed.

07-23-2008, 01:34 PM	#9
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,031 Thanks: 1,018 Thanked 3,873 Times in 1,184 Posts	Hi Michael, Actually, yes, there is a good chance, but it needs some further investigation The 9mm versions appear to have some 'meat' or weight added to the rear end of the grip piece. These reinforcements have been described in other threads before. These changes most likely made it into DWM's .30 luger versions of the same era as well. We also now know, after speaking with former Mauser engineers who were connected to the development of the 1970s Mauser Parabellum, that they had a lot of problems to create a decent 9mm version based on their .30 luger / Swiss inspired model, because of these Swiss changes. Can't give too many specific details, as more will be revealed in an upcoming book on the Post-War Mauser Parabellum.