Luger barrel question

[1994Stoeger]

First, I will announce I am not a gunsmith and I would NOT undertake this myself.

Has anyone successfully bored-out an existing full-thickness (e.g., NOT the "pencil" variety) .30 luger barrel to 9mm? Is this possible?

If so, any details shared would be appreciated. Thanks.

[sheepherder]

Originally Posted by 1994Stoeger

First, I will announce I am not a gunsmith and I would NOT undertake this myself.

Has anyone successfully bored-out an existing full-thickness (e.g., NOT the "pencil" variety) .30 luger barrel to 9mm? Is this possible?

If so, any details shared would be appreciated. Thanks.

Bore out??? Smooth bore 9mm???

If you mean reline to 9mm, yes, there are a couple companies who do it. Do a Search for 'reline'.

Gerry Tomek [G.T.] might be interested in such a project, too.

But it's so relatively easy to just swap out the 7.65 bbl to a 9mm that it's not really economical.

[G.T.]

Hi Guys, I think it could be done, my concern would be the stress involved with pushing a rifling button thru for the new lands and grooves?? It is usually performed when the blank is full size...But, Rich is 100% correct, with all the 9mm barrels still available, it would most likely be a counter productive task... You could almost buy the blanks and make the barrels cheaper... .. best to all, til...lat'r....GT

[sheepherder]

Originally Posted by G.T.

Hi Guys, I think it could be done, my concern would be the stress involved with pushing a rifling button thru for the new lands and grooves...

Is it really that much??? Land diameter of my S/42 is 8,82mm, a 9mm bullet is .355"...That's only .008", which means the grooves are only .004" deep...They're about a tenth of an inch wide, as far as I can tell...That doesn't seem all that much...Harbor Freight sells 10 and 20 ton presses pretty cheap...(They seem to use bottle jacks for the press)...Drill it out to .347" and then press the button through...

I wonder...Maybe a threaded ram, to turn the button while you press it???

[G.T.]

Hi Rich, I dunno?? I just know it takes a lot to push something bigger thru something smaller... .... most of my experiences ended with stuck like welded results! I though one might mount a threaded fixture in a large, mostly linier thrust bearing, and let it, the barrel, turn as the button goes thru! ..... I have been eyeing the button for sale on ebay.... Project number 9999! .... best to all,til...lat'r....GT....

[1994Stoeger]

Thanks for your collective insights. As I mentioned, I am not a gunsmith – kindly excuse my inappropriate use/choice of terminology: re-bore, re-line, etc. However, it seems most everyone understood the general nature of my question.

The thought process behind the question involved a very nice, sentimentally-valuable 7.65mm luger with a relatively worn-out barrel bore. In the interest of keeping the gun’s components as original to each other as possible while updating it to shoot the more economical 9x19mm luger cartridge, I was inquiring whether the 7.65mm barrel had enough “meat” on it to undergo the process. The car buffs in the group might appreciate the analogous comparison to the rebuilding of an original numbers matching engine (e.g., barrel) with worn cylinders (e.g., bore) rather than installing a completely different engine (e.g., replacement barrel) into a classic car (e.g., luger). This does not touch upon the obvious added differences in bluing and patina one would encounter with a mis-matched or replacement barrel.

Judging from the collective replies, it sounds as though this may be a possibility in the right hands. Does anyone know of a particularly competent gunsmith who would be skilled/experienced at such an undertaking? Thanks again for the collective insights.

[sheepherder]

Originally Posted by 1994Stoeger

In the interest of keeping the gun’s components as original to each other as possible while updating it to shoot the more economical 9x19mm luger cartridge, I was inquiring whether the 7.65mm barrel had enough “meat” on it to undergo the process.

I've never actually mic'd the two barrels, but if sentiment is primary then re-lining would be the best choice in my opinion, and the original 30 caliber the easiest (again, just my opinion). There are two shops that come to mind, Redman's and The Broom Closet. I haven't dealt with either but there are many comments on them here, if you do a Search.

There are many others I'm sure, and the Luger barrel is so short that it is [probably] a quick & easy job.

You might not be aware that the 30 cal barrel is ~1/8" shorter than the 9mm barrel. Not a big deal, but re-boring yours to 9mm does destroy any 'collector' value.

You will also find comments here that even sewer-pipe Luger barrels have been found to shoot remarkably well, so re-lining/re-boring may not be necessary, if you only want it to shoot acceptably.

I would shoot it before doing anything that can not be reversed.

$.02

[Lugerdoc]

94S, I agree that to keep a luger matching, including the barrel, and original blue, that relining back to 7.65P or 9mmP, may be the best approach. If someone does want to try the reboreing project, I have PLENTY of shot-out 7.65mm barrels available @$10 each or $15 for exc outside blue. I'd recomment the Broom Closet for relining. TH

[rhuff]

Originally Posted by sheepherder

You will also find comments here that even sewer-pipe Luger barrels have been found to shoot remarkably well, so re-lining/re-boring may not be necessary, if you only want it to shoot acceptably.

I would shoot it before doing anything that can not be reversed.

$.02

I own a 1921 Alphabet Luger in 30 Luger caliber. The bore looks like a sewer pipe, most likely due to corrosive primers, and not being cleaned correctly. Despite it's looks, it shoots wonderfully accurate. It really surprised me, because I had considered a barrel change many years ago. Now I just pay it no attention, and shoot away. It is a bit harder to clean, but I am not near as OCD about cleaning this barrel. Your choice, but I would not change anything unless it throws the bullets out sideways.

[Ron Wood]

Originally Posted by rhuff

...your choice, but i would not change anything unless it throws the bullets out sideways.

amen!

[sheepherder]

Originally Posted by G.T.

Hi Rich, I dunno?? I just know it takes a lot to push something bigger thru something smaller... .... most of my experiences ended with stuck like welded results! I though one might mount a threaded fixture in a large, mostly linier thrust bearing, and let it, the barrel, turn as the button goes thru! ..... I have been eyeing the button for sale on ebay.... Project number 9999! .... best to all,til...lat'r....GT....

Gerry, my only experience in this area has been in cutting keyway slots in gears and pulleys. We used the appropriate width broach and an assortment of shims. The 'press' used a gear driven ram, with a long handle, for pushing the broach through. Use lots of oil, and if hard resistance is felt, a pipe on the handle. A half-inch keyway would require a quarter-inch deep cut in the gear/pulley. The shims were any convenient thickness; in this case, probably 1/32" or 1/16". Press the broach through and stack another shim, oil, and press through again. Broaches were ~18" long IIRC.

A rifling groove of only .004"-.005" would be easy. Making a 'rotating nut' with a twist of 1 in 10" might require some thought...

[Olle]

Originally Posted by Lugerdoc

I'd recomment the Broom Closet for relining. TH

I have seen some Broom Closet relines being off center, and after searching the internet I have found several comments about that. You may want to consider Redman's instead, he's more expensive but has a better reputation. He did a C96 for me last year, and he did an excellent job. You can't see a thing after the bluing either, and I believe he peens the muzzle to make sure that the seam won't show. Top notch work!

[An Old Shooter]

Redman did absolutely excellent seamless work for me on a P08 and a C96 years ago but left a query unanswered recently about another P08 reline.

[Dwight Gruber]

Originally Posted by 1994Stoeger

The thought process behind the question involved a very nice, sentimentally-valuable 7.65mm luger with a relatively worn-out barrel bore. In the interest of keeping the gun’s components as original to each other as possible while updating it to shoot the more economical 9x19mm luger cartridge, I was inquiring whether the 7.65mm barrel had enough “meat” on it to undergo the process. The car buffs in the group might appreciate the analogous comparison to the rebuilding of an original numbers matching engine (e.g., barrel) with worn cylinders (e.g., bore) rather than installing a completely different engine (e.g., replacement barrel) into a classic car (e.g., luger). This does not touch upon the obvious added differences in bluing and patina one would encounter with a mis-matched or replacement barrel.

Judging from the collective replies, it sounds as though this may be a possibility in the right hands. Does anyone know of a particularly competent gunsmith who would be skilled/experienced at such an undertaking? Thanks again for the collective insights.

The 9mm re-bore/reline is perfectly practicable. If you go this route, you will need to replace the recoil spring--and perhaps the firing pin spring--for the pistol to function properly as a 9mm.

Test-firing the pistol first to determine its accuracy in its current state is entirely on-point.

--Dwight

[DonVoigt]

Originally Posted by An Old Shooter

Redman did absolutely excellent seamless work for me on a P08 and a C96 years ago but left a query unanswered recently about another P08 reline.

When I talked with Redman some months ago, he said he was only doing .30 cal Broomhandles anymore.

I got the impression that he had plenty of .30 Broom relines to do. it took over a month to get mine back.
Any other work or change likely reduces the number of "standard" Broom relines he can do.

May be different now. Probably best to write him a letter and enclose an SASE, he is an analog kind of guy.

[Olle]

Originally Posted by DonVoigt

When I talked with Redman some months ago, he said he was only doing .30 cal Broomhandles anymore.

I just looked at his web site, and it says "Currently not doing reboring due to my back log". I guess he's just has enough to do, and decided not to bother with the custom jobs.

[markbritt]

1994Stoeger:

I have had both .30 lugers relined to 9mm (2 of them) and two C96's relined to 9mm by "The Broom Closet" also known as "The Gun Rack". I have talked with Tom (owner) and they do a great job on the relines AND bluing. I picked up a .30 luger locally that was basically bare metal. Sent it down and Tom relined to 9mm and blued - all for about 180.00 (about 6 years ago). Excellent work, fast turn around and knowledgeable.

9154 NW CR 285, Starke, FL, 32019. Phone 1-904-964-5053

[sheepherder]

Originally Posted by G.T.

...I have been eyeing the button for sale on ebay...

Gerry - (if you're still around) Does the 'button' cut the grooves or does it form them??? Broaching cuts the channel and 'stores' the chips in it's saw-tooth-like gaps between the teeth...I've never seen a button so I'm wondering if it actually cuts or just deforms the metal...

[G.T.]

Hi Rich, I guess for a better term, it most likely swages its way thru the bore? As I see absolutely no provisions for chip clearance... Just an excellent example of brute force overcoming resistance?.... I've seen sharp tools cut several thousands effortlessly, and by the same token, seen a .001" or .002" upset hold tons of force?... ...
As for the button rifling process, It looks insanely easy to do.... but, also, not cost effective as a cheap "button" is going to be a couple of hundred all by it's self... I'm challenged enough with just threading the tenon... ... Best to you Rich, til....lat'r....GT......