Luger will not fire until the trigger is pulled twice.

[Lugerdoc]

James, Your luger is suffering from the classic disconnecting problem. I'm sure that you will learn a lot about the PO8s "rube goldberg" designed firing sequence from this project. I've been correcting these problems for over 40 years and can't tell you exactly what to try next. It's easier on a mismatch shooter where you can change triggers, sears or trigger levers without having to worry about mismatched parts. But on matching PO8s, it usually comes down to finding (bending, etc) the right angled trigger lever, not shimming or building up parts. TH

[1964bigfoot]

Tom: Yes I am certainly learning all about the luger. I wish I could see inside the trigger plate to see what exactly is not correct. I tried putting a thin line of whiteout on the trigger lever and the sear pin, held the trigger back and racked the toggle to see where the engagement exactly is when I release the trigger afterwards. It didn't really show me much.

Since I live in Canada shipping the Luger to you is out of the question, when I get the replacement springs at least I will have a known starting point to work with and I will continue my quest.

[glock30]

YEP,The trigger bar is bad, needs a sideplate , the best way to test this problem b4 you buy the gun is, Keep the trigger depressed (DOWN) and work the action. If you than let go of the trigger while it is in battery than, and it does not fire,the gun has a problem, and it is advisable to check any Luger for this b4 you buy it. it is the disconnector, 90 percent of the time the trigger bar, or that sear might need to be cleaned etc. The question was answerred so.

[1964bigfoot]

Received the springs from Tom and installed them on the Luger. The trigger bar spring was the biggest improvement that I noticed and the Luger seems to be working fine now with the new springs installed. I will take it to the range in the next week or two and see how it does and report back.

[1964bigfoot]

Finally got a chance to go to the range yesterday with the Luger since I replaced all the springs.

Same basic problem as before but this time I tried when it wouldn't fire on the second round to just recock it and then it would fire. Kind of a hit and miss so I guess it is back to the drawing board.

[lugerholsterrepair]

Tom.."".(bending, etc) the right angled trigger lever"", HUH? I know you have decades more experience but trigger levers are so hard I have never been able to bend one..they just snap like dry twigs!

[Lugerdoc]

Sounds like a classic case of the disconnector not pushing under the trigger lever on the first try. There are many possible solutions: increasing the angle on the top part of lever, heating lever to bend slightly outward or first checking that disconnector spring is strong enough. TH

[ithacaartist]

Originally Posted by Lugerdoc

Sounds like a classic case of the disconnector not pushing under the trigger lever on the first try. There are many possible solutions: increasing the angle on the top part of lever, heating lever to bend slightly outward or first checking that disconnector spring is strong enough. TH

Don't forget heating this part in order to change its shape/angle will necessitate heat treating again afterwards to reestablish its temper!

[lugerholsterrepair]

(bending, etc) the right angled trigger lever

I have been interested in heat treatment of various metals ever since I went to gunsmithing school many decades ago..It's something you better know about or have a lot of experience with before you try it at home!

[ithacaartist]

Originally Posted by lugerholsterrepair

(bending, etc) the right angled trigger lever

I have been interested in heat treatment of various metals ever since I went to gunsmithing school many decades ago..It's something you better know about or have a lot of experience with before you try it at home!

Yes, it probably requires a certain amount of knowledge of how the different alloys will behave when treated. But all this is stuff that can be found in pertinent reference books--or, as I did, by asking the Knowledgeable! It will be involved in creating the small run of extractors for the Erma KGP86 that I'm on the path toward. When one knows the alloy and target hardness, it will be simple enough to apply even heat to the parts to achieve the required temp for the intended result. If the required temperature and its accuracy are within the capabilities of the home setup--in this case, a toaster oven and a box of sand or salt--I say go for it! I think many of us are competent enough to reproduce 100+ -year-old technology right in the home shop!

I've always found it interesting that quenching a red hot piece of copper or brass will make it softer/more malleable, contrasted with ferrous stuff which always winds up a bit harder under this treatment. Something ferrous, when heated to red and quenched in either water or oil, will result in a part that's dead hard within its range, but brittle as glass. Re-heating to a lesser temp and quenching after this is accomplished draws off varying degrees of that hardness, trading it for toughness, with dead soft at the other end of the spectrum.

[lugerholsterrepair]

I've always found it interesting that quenching a red hot piece of copper or brass will make it softer/more malleable,

David..Heating copper or brass to a red temp is all it takes..let it cool ..quenching is not necessary. It doesn't hurt the metal or make it any harder but heating or annealing brass makes it as soft as it will ever get. The only way to harden brass is to work it. Bend it, roll it, pound on it..it will be hard again and brass that is worked must be annealed in order to prevent it cracking.

You are quite correct about the ability to learn the procedures..The internet is a great learning source. As are people willing to share!
Gold and silver the same...

[Sky Zero]

Interesting.. considering you need to pull the trigger twice to shoot one round. I pulled the trigger once today and it shot 2 rounds...

[1964bigfoot]

Heating and bending the trigger and finding the correct angle etc. is out of my league so I am going to wait till after hunting season is over and send it to a gunsmith. I wish I lived in the states there are lots to choose from but I found a smith that I can send it to that has a good reputation for working on Luger's.

[ithacaartist]

Several years ago, I made a pair of brass cafe' chairs, incorporated in a memorial sculpture by Robt. Bertoia (nephew, I think, of the more famous Harry Bertoia) on the Ithaca Commons. I copied all the design elements of a regular cafe' chair in 1/2" round brass stock--looped feet, twined members, etc. The weak point was the single strand on each side, which supported the chair backs. TIG welding had annealed the pieces at critical points to the extent that the soft material would have been an easy thing for potential vandals to break off, had I not reinforced these areas. This, because, as Jerry pointed out, there is no other way to re-harden brass than work hardening. Heating and allowing the metal to cool (relatively) slowly--annealing--softens most common metals. Not sure about titanium, as I have no experience with it. But as Jerry said, heating cupric alloys softens them whether or not they are quenched.

Back to the side plate lever, How 'bout obtaining a different side plate to try? Another option would be to change out the lever itself--a bit of a PITA, but way less involved than metallurgical shenanigans, and harmless to all components involved.

[lugerholsterrepair]

David..'bout obtaining a different side plate to try? That would be my first approach..Good idea.

[Thor]

Sometimes, I remove a bit off the face of the trigger lever that lets the disconnector push past it for the reset, but if you take too much off the gun will not fire at all. Sometimes the leaf sear spring is too strong. Tom Heller (lugerdoc) has schooled me on much of this. Also on early Lugers if you see DRAG marks, on the left side of the receiver, made by the face of the trigger lever, there is a good chance it is over rotating during the firing sequence. I NEVER bend the trigger levers unless I am darn sure they are not hardened, most are and will break before bending. It is mostly about the disconnector spring strength and the trigger lever rotational movement. When the trigger is pulled the shot should break just before the trigger contacts the frame and when the toggle cycles and the trigger is released the lever needs to move far enough to allow the disconnector button, at the end of the sear bar, to pop back in place. When everything is in position correctly and the trigger arm has the right angles in play, and you have a good spring you usually get a reset after firing. One more variable to throw in the mix. the trigger slot can affect it too but not as much. One way to visually watch the reset process, is to remove the toggle train from the reciever, then put the gun back together without the train in place. You can see the disconnector button pop back in place when everything is working properly.

[1964bigfoot]

The took the Luger along for the ride to the range today and here is what happens that I never tried before.

Load magazine with ammo and cycle the slide as normal.
Pull trigger and it will always fire first shot.
Toggle extracts and loads new round as usual.

Pull trigger and nothing.

If I now pull back on the toggle for about an inch it will **** and I close the toggle as normal and it will now fire one round.

So for the rest of the magazine I need to pull the toggle back enough to **** it and let it go and it will fire.

Are there any other area's I need to look at except the trigger group?

[tuica]

The "Nervous Nazi" Luger. No firing on that first combat flinch. Have a great Christmas everyone!

[Lugerdoc]

BF, You have the classic problem of the disconnector (plunger in the trigger bar) not pushing under the trigger lever (in side plate) on recoil. There can be various causes for this to happen, but the fix usually involves the 2 parts mentioned. TH