Question on double date DWM

romer12 · 03-15-2011, 02:58 PM

luger 1917/1920. front grip strap marked 'Ma.716'
Back of rear toggle also marked '716'
Not the gun serial number. I assume 716 is gun number, but what does 'Ma.' stand for ?? thanks gentelmen........

Ron Smith · 03-15-2011, 05:58 PM

John,

Ma. is the abbreviation for Marienwerder. It is a town in east Prussia. Your Luger was issued either to the Schutzpolizei (Municpal Police) of the town, or to the Landjagerei (Rural Police) in that district.

Unusual that there's not an S (Schutzpolizei) or L (Landjagerei) preceding the Ma.

The 716 is a rack or Police inventory number.

Ron

romer12 · 03-15-2011, 06:36 PM

thanks much for the i.d. I think the 1917 holster has some printing in it also but hard to make out. Have to check it again........

Don M · 03-15-2011, 08:15 PM

Ron, I hate to do this again

but this marking recently has been identified as being from the Baden Schutzpolizei in Mannheim. See HWIS update #9 on http://www.historywritinsteel.com/New_Insights.html.

John, for my database I would greatly appreciate knowing the serial number & suffix of this pistol as well as whether or not it has a sear and/or mag safety. I would also be interested in knowing whether there is a circled "S" stamped on the left side of the receiver. Thanks very much for posting this.

romer12 · 03-15-2011, 09:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Don M

Ron, I hate to do this again

but this marking recently has been identified as being from the Baden Schutzpolizei in Mannheim. See HWIS update #9 on http://www.historywritinsteel.com/New_Insights.html.

John, for my database I would greatly appreciate knowing the serial number & suffix of this pistol as well as whether or not it has a sear and/or mag safety. I would also be interested in knowing whether there is a circled "S" stamped on the left side of the receiver. Thanks very much for posting this.

I am sending pics to your email (7). tried to show the details you asked for. there is a small 'h' under serial number front of receiver. also front of trigger guard is a small crown over RG and another small crown over (maybe) a star ???? On trigger plate small crown over what looks like a fancy german 'J' ??
Left side on frame above grip small sliver of metal going into frame ??? I hope my pics capture all aspects needed.

Holster by C. Heinichen, Dresden, 1917

under flap....noted : St. Pol.( & Possibly) GH. Little further away larger LC

did not note an S in circle on left side...........

Don M · 03-15-2011, 10:07 PM

John, from the photos it appears that this is an Erfurt, has a sear safety and a disabled mag safety. If the toggle is stamped DWM as you indicate in the thread title, at least the toggle has been replaced. I think others on the forum would be interested in your photos, including one of the top of the gun as well as the bottom of the barrel. You will probably need to reduce the size of the photos to post them.

The holster also sounds interesting. Is the closure police style (vertical up-strap with stud)? If you can provide photos of this, including the markings under the flap, it would be great.

romer12 · 03-15-2011, 10:50 PM

it looks like the buckle type closure strap was changed to strap going into slotted opening, like the artillery holster type.
I was thinking the GN on holster was 'gelnhausen' near manheim (I think). I don't have macro camera, so can't get to close. the finish for the middle toggle is exactly equal to the front and rear toggle. don't appear changed ????? I'll have to try and take more pics of top and holster. Holster v.good condition although well used. looks like someone in the past dyed it black (as I know germans did during WW1) with a very nice finish, like patten leather. the 2 mags are also matching.

romer12 · 03-15-2011, 10:52 PM

p.s. too dumb to figure out how to reduce the pics. that's why I sent them to your email...........

Edward Tinker · 03-15-2011, 11:11 PM

I'll bet you a dollar your camera has a macro feature, unless you are using a cell phone. I also bet it has a 'email setting" which I dislike, because with full pictures you cam crop and resize. An easy skill once you figure it out, AND have the proper software (most photo software includes it).

i'd offer to resize it myself, but my internet is so slow here that 7-12 megabytes would be forever....

Ed

romer12 · 03-15-2011, 11:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Edward Tinker

I'll bet you a dollar your camera has a macro feature, unless you are using a cell phone. I also bet it has a 'email setting" which I dislike, because with full pictures you cam crop and resize. An easy skill once you figure it out, AND have the proper software (most photo software includes it).

i'd offer to resize it myself, but my internet is so slow here that 7-12 megabytes would be forever....

Ed

I checked book, nothing about macro. I have a kodak Z740. does that have macro ?????

Edward Tinker · 03-15-2011, 11:56 PM

http://support.en.kodak.com/app/answ.../selected/true

http://resources.kodak.com/support/s...0330c4s3.shtml

4 Doing more with your camera

Taking close-up and landscape pictures

Use the Close-up/Landscape button

to take pictures of scenes that are very close or very far away.

1. Set the Mode dial to any Capture mode.

2. Press the Close-up/Landscape button

repeatedly until the

or

icon appears in the status bar.

3. Take a picture.

Close-up pictures

Use the Close-up setting

to gain sharpness and detail in pictures at close range. Use available light instead of flash if possible. The camera automatically sets the focus distance depending on the zoom position:

or if not too many pictures, or you're so frustrated, then gladly send them to me

weimar_lugers@verizon.net

Ed

Ron Smith · 03-16-2011, 07:51 AM

"Ron, I hate to do this again but this marking recently has been identified as being from the Baden Schutzpolizei in Mannheim.
Don"

I found it in Görtz and Bryan's and verified it with your book.

Ron

Don M · 03-16-2011, 10:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ron Smith

I found it in Görtz and Bryan's and verified it with your book.

Ron, unfortunately both references are wrong in this instance. The website link I posted above and the forum thread referenced therein explain the new id. You have to read most of the forum thread to find the "aha" moment!

romer12 · 03-16-2011, 10:44 AM

Ed...........I tried all the things you mentioned in your reply. nothing works on my camera. I will check with the company about this. thanks

Don M · 03-16-2011, 03:30 PM

John, I have edited some of the photos you sent me. There is no question in my mind that the frame, receiver and barrel are from an Erfurt and that the entire toggle train has been replaced with one from DWM. The serial numbers on the toggle train appear to be force matched. The grip strap marking is definitely from the Mannheim Schupo. The "a" is distinctive and characteristic of others from this unit and the marking is stamped in reverse of Prussian markings. This is the first example of a P08 with Ma. markings that does not have a circled-S on the left side of the receiver.

The holster is typical of the WWI military holsters that were converted for police use but the markings inside the cover are quite interesting. I'm virtually certain one of the markings is St. Pol. Sd. which I interpret as Staatliche Polizei Stralsund. This may have been a Gestapo marking from the early 1930s. The other marking appears to be L.G. This is somewhat puzzling to me. I'm tempted to interpret it as Landesgendarmerie but I have never seen this marking on holsters originally manufactured for P08s.

I do not believe this holster saw service with this pistol. The holster appears to have northern Germany markings while the pistol is from the south.

Ron Smith · 03-16-2011, 08:50 PM

Don,

I'll stick with the Military Unit marks, you can have the Police marks.

As my Grandad used to say "It takes all my knowin', just to know what I'm knowin'."

Ron

sheepherder · 03-17-2011, 05:44 AM

Looking at the side photo, it appears that the magazine safety is intact...

Question: Would that make this or any Police Luger more collectible???

(Edit: Sideplate is definitely an Erfurt also)

alanint · 03-17-2011, 06:40 AM

I would guess that only the bar is intact. All that is behind the sideplate is probably gone. Some people snipped the bar off entirely, others took out the parts behind the sideplate.

Don M · 03-17-2011, 07:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by postino

Looking at the side photo, it appears that the magazine safety is intact...

Question: Would that make this or any Police Luger more collectible???

It would certainly make it extremely rare but I don't think there are many collectors who really care. In any event, this mag safety has been deactivated by clipping off the piece that would block the trigger.

Don M · 03-23-2011, 11:27 AM

I have found in my database another Ma. Erfurt that does have a circled-S and have revised my previous post accordingly.

03-15-2011, 02:58 PM	#1
romer12 User Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: N.J. Posts: 85 Thanks: 3 Thanked 4 Times in 3 Posts	Question on double date DWM luger 1917/1920. front grip strap marked 'Ma.716' Back of rear toggle also marked '716' Not the gun serial number. I assume 716 is gun number, but what does 'Ma.' stand for ?? thanks gentelmen........ __________________ blessed are those who expect nothing.........for they shall not be disappointed.

03-15-2011, 05:58 PM	#2
Ron Smith User Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Orygun Posts: 4,243 Thanks: 118 Thanked 245 Times in 150 Posts	John, Ma. is the abbreviation for Marienwerder. It is a town in east Prussia. Your Luger was issued either to the Schutzpolizei (Municpal Police) of the town, or to the Landjagerei (Rural Police) in that district. Unusual that there's not an S (Schutzpolizei) or L (Landjagerei) preceding the Ma. The 716 is a rack or Police inventory number. Ron __________________ I Still Need DWM side plate #49... if anyone runs across a nice one. What ~Rudyard Kipling~ said...

03-15-2011, 06:36 PM	#3
romer12 User Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: N.J. Posts: 85 Thanks: 3 Thanked 4 Times in 3 Posts	Ron thank you. thanks much for the i.d. I think the 1917 holster has some printing in it also but hard to make out. Have to check it again........ __________________ blessed are those who expect nothing.........for they shall not be disappointed.

03-15-2011, 08:15 PM	#4
Don M Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 1,429 Thanks: 67 Thanked 292 Times in 191 Posts	Ron, I hate to do this again but this marking recently has been identified as being from the Baden Schutzpolizei in Mannheim. See HWIS update #9 on http://www.historywritinsteel.com/New_Insights.html. John, for my database I would greatly appreciate knowing the serial number & suffix of this pistol as well as whether or not it has a sear and/or mag safety. I would also be interested in knowing whether there is a circled "S" stamped on the left side of the receiver. Thanks very much for posting this. __________________ Regards, Don donmaus1@aol.com Author of History Writ in Steel: German Police Markings 1900-1936 http://www.historywritinsteel.com

03-15-2011, 10:07 PM	#6
Don M Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 1,429 Thanks: 67 Thanked 292 Times in 191 Posts	John, from the photos it appears that this is an Erfurt, has a sear safety and a disabled mag safety. If the toggle is stamped DWM as you indicate in the thread title, at least the toggle has been replaced. I think others on the forum would be interested in your photos, including one of the top of the gun as well as the bottom of the barrel. You will probably need to reduce the size of the photos to post them. The holster also sounds interesting. Is the closure police style (vertical up-strap with stud)? If you can provide photos of this, including the markings under the flap, it would be great. __________________ Regards, Don donmaus1@aol.com Author of History Writ in Steel: German Police Markings 1900-1936 http://www.historywritinsteel.com

03-15-2011, 10:50 PM	#7
romer12 User Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: N.J. Posts: 85 Thanks: 3 Thanked 4 Times in 3 Posts	don it looks like the buckle type closure strap was changed to strap going into slotted opening, like the artillery holster type. I was thinking the GN on holster was 'gelnhausen' near manheim (I think). I don't have macro camera, so can't get to close. the finish for the middle toggle is exactly equal to the front and rear toggle. don't appear changed ????? I'll have to try and take more pics of top and holster. Holster v.good condition although well used. looks like someone in the past dyed it black (as I know germans did during WW1) with a very nice finish, like patten leather. the 2 mags are also matching. __________________ blessed are those who expect nothing.........for they shall not be disappointed.

03-15-2011, 10:52 PM	#8
romer12 User Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: N.J. Posts: 85 Thanks: 3 Thanked 4 Times in 3 Posts	Don p.s. too dumb to figure out how to reduce the pics. that's why I sent them to your email........... __________________ blessed are those who expect nothing.........for they shall not be disappointed.

03-15-2011, 11:11 PM	#9
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,909 Thanks: 1,986 Thanked 4,500 Times in 2,076 Posts	I'll bet you a dollar your camera has a macro feature, unless you are using a cell phone. I also bet it has a 'email setting" which I dislike, because with full pictures you cam crop and resize. An easy skill once you figure it out, AND have the proper software (most photo software includes it). i'd offer to resize it myself, but my internet is so slow here that 7-12 megabytes would be forever.... Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

03-15-2011, 11:56 PM	#11
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,909 Thanks: 1,986 Thanked 4,500 Times in 2,076 Posts	http://support.en.kodak.com/app/answ.../selected/true http://resources.kodak.com/support/s...0330c4s3.shtml 4 Doing more with your camera Taking close-up and landscape pictures Use the Close-up/Landscape button to take pictures of scenes that are very close or very far away. 1. Set the Mode dial to any Capture mode. 2. Press the Close-up/Landscape button repeatedly until the or icon appears in the status bar. 3. Take a picture. Close-up pictures Use the Close-up setting to gain sharpness and detail in pictures at close range. Use available light instead of flash if possible. The camera automatically sets the focus distance depending on the zoom position: or if not too many pictures, or you're so frustrated, then gladly send them to me weimar_lugers@verizon.net Ed

03-16-2011, 07:51 AM	#12
Ron Smith User Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Orygun Posts: 4,243 Thanks: 118 Thanked 245 Times in 150 Posts	"Ron, I hate to do this again but this marking recently has been identified as being from the Baden Schutzpolizei in Mannheim. Don" I found it in Görtz and Bryan's and verified it with your book. Ron __________________ I Still Need DWM side plate #49... if anyone runs across a nice one. What ~Rudyard Kipling~ said...

03-16-2011, 10:44 AM	#14
romer12 User Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: N.J. Posts: 85 Thanks: 3 Thanked 4 Times in 3 Posts	Ed...........I tried all the things you mentioned in your reply. nothing works on my camera. I will check with the company about this. thanks __________________ blessed are those who expect nothing.........for they shall not be disappointed.

03-16-2011, 03:30 PM	#15
Don M Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 1,429 Thanks: 67 Thanked 292 Times in 191 Posts	John, I have edited some of the photos you sent me. There is no question in my mind that the frame, receiver and barrel are from an Erfurt and that the entire toggle train has been replaced with one from DWM. The serial numbers on the toggle train appear to be force matched. The grip strap marking is definitely from the Mannheim Schupo. The "a" is distinctive and characteristic of others from this unit and the marking is stamped in reverse of Prussian markings. This is the first example of a P08 with Ma. markings that does not have a circled-S on the left side of the receiver. The holster is typical of the WWI military holsters that were converted for police use but the markings inside the cover are quite interesting. I'm virtually certain one of the markings is St. Pol. Sd. which I interpret as Staatliche Polizei Stralsund. This may have been a Gestapo marking from the early 1930s. The other marking appears to be L.G. This is somewhat puzzling to me. I'm tempted to interpret it as Landesgendarmerie but I have never seen this marking on holsters originally manufactured for P08s. I do not believe this holster saw service with this pistol. The holster appears to have northern Germany markings while the pistol is from the south. Attached Thumbnails __________________ Regards, Don donmaus1@aol.com Author of History Writ in Steel: German Police Markings 1900-1936 http://www.historywritinsteel.com Last edited by Don M; 03-23-2011 at 11:25 AM. Reason: Deleted comment about possible correlation between circled-S marking and DWM.

03-16-2011, 08:50 PM	#16
Ron Smith User Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Orygun Posts: 4,243 Thanks: 118 Thanked 245 Times in 150 Posts	Don, I'll stick with the Military Unit marks, you can have the Police marks. As my Grandad used to say "It takes all my knowin', just to know what I'm knowin'." Ron __________________ I Still Need DWM side plate #49... if anyone runs across a nice one. What ~Rudyard Kipling~ said...

03-17-2011, 05:44 AM	#17
sheepherder Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: ...on the 'ol Erie Canal... Posts: 8,181 Thanks: 1,398 Thanked 4,438 Times in 2,327 Posts	Looking at the side photo, it appears that the magazine safety is intact... Question: Would that make this or any Police Luger more collectible??? (Edit: Sideplate is definitely an Erfurt also) __________________ I like my coffee the way I like my women... ...Cold and bitter...

03-17-2011, 06:40 AM	#18
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,916 Times in 1,192 Posts	I would guess that only the bar is intact. All that is behind the sideplate is probably gone. Some people snipped the bar off entirely, others took out the parts behind the sideplate.

03-23-2011, 11:27 AM	#20
Don M Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 1,429 Thanks: 67 Thanked 292 Times in 191 Posts	I have found in my database another Ma. Erfurt that does have a circled-S and have revised my previous post accordingly. __________________ Regards, Don donmaus1@aol.com Author of History Writ in Steel: German Police Markings 1900-1936 http://www.historywritinsteel.com