Were All Eagles The Same?

cirelaw · 03-26-2013, 12:49 PM

The Eagles are beautiful. Did the quality remain the same over the years? Were there any differences over time? Where did they obtain the dies? Were they made in Germany? Is each eagle unique to each model produced? How many different varieties are there? ~~Eric

guns3545 · 03-26-2013, 03:03 PM

Eric,

Die marking crests and national emblems on the chamber occurred often in DWM production years and even later in the Mauser era. It was always an option for a country purchasing for their Armed Forces. Or a freebie thrown in to win an order. Also, for commercial purposes having the national emblem on the gun gave it a certain cachet that attracted retail buyers.

But to your Questions:

1. The depth and quality of the die marking varied with the age/wear of the die, the skill of the die maker and ultimately with the skill of the production personnel but was always generally good. For example, as you examine various AEs , you can see variations in the depth of the impression.

2. The Eagle is not just any Eagle. It is the Eagle on the Great Seal of the United States of America that is used on currency, buildings, badges and other official and not so official articles. There is only one true definition of the Eagle. But die makers are human and even on our currency you can detect minute differences.

3. DWM certainly manufactured their own dies. Tool and Die makers are artisans essential to gun making.

4. For American Eagle models, the symbol is always the Eagle on the Great Seal of the United States of America. But various eagles were used over time in the crests and national symbols of other royal families and countries.

Hope this helps. And I agree, it is a truly wonderful symbol adorning the chamber of a truly wondrous gun.

John

ithacaartist · 03-26-2013, 03:31 PM

Eric, maybe it has changed over time!

cirelaw · 03-26-2013, 03:34 PM

I really love you both! I'm sure there were some issues during the thirties in Nazi Germany!!! When did the import of crested lugers to our country cease or were no longer produced by D.W.M.?

Geo99 · 04-25-2013, 01:10 AM

Eric,

I have observed at least two different versions of the seal on 1906 AE Lugers. One version has 20 bumps and the other has only 16 bumps round the outside. When I first saw this I thought the 16 ones were fake, but I believe they are a truly different version (perhaps some other 'expert' can chime in on this).

Your 1902 above has the original 20 bump version - you are right, that is a beautiful eagle. I find the earlier ones were sharper and nicer, maybe due to the dies being newer. The "E Pluribus Unum" inscription on the ribbon should always be clearly visible for guns in good condition, but I've seen some pretty poor ones on later guns.

I wanted to show you an example of the other but I can't seem to attach a picture.

- Geo

Geo99 · 04-25-2013, 01:21 AM

OK I figured it out.

Name: 1906 Eagle version #1 (small).jpg
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Size: 24.9 KB

VERSION 1 (20)

Name: 1906 Eagle version #2 (small).jpg
Views: 424
Size: 29.5 KB

VERSION 2 (16)

Name: 1902 FatBarrel Eagle (small).jpg
Views: 420
Size: 22.4 KB

1902 FAT BARREL VERSION (ORIGINAL)

- Geo

CJS57 · 04-25-2013, 07:28 AM

Thin tail and fat tail differences too. Plain breast and detailed breast is another detail. Mine is a later gun, 45xxx with 16 bump fat tail.

ithacaartist · 04-25-2013, 09:11 AM

Guys,

Here is another example, though not German.

cirelaw · 04-25-2013, 11:58 AM

How many Eagle varieties were there! We know the first was the 1900 Test Luger but what Eagle marked DWM luger was the last? It would be quite a collection!!!

alvin · 04-25-2013, 08:21 PM

The Eagle that I had a chance holding in my hand had lots of detail. But I had touched only one DWM AE, were there many variations of this crest?

Dwight Gruber · 04-26-2013, 01:01 AM

The first Old Model produced wtith the American Eagle was sn 2002, some 4000-odd guns before the Test Eagles.

--Dwight

Mike B · 04-26-2013, 06:15 PM

You might want to take a look at this thread; dated 2007

http://forum.lugerforum.com/showpost...86&postcount=1

Parabellus · 05-23-2013, 04:52 PM

I've been counting bumps and keep coming up with 19 instead of 20.

First I counted mine and then the others pictured and still get 19.

Geo99 · 05-24-2013, 02:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Parabellus

I've been counting bumps and keep coming up with 19 instead of 20.

First I counted mine and then the others pictured and still get 19.

I think you are correct. I went back and counted again and now I only see 19. Old eyes you know - may have wisdom but can't see for crap!

-Geo

Vlim · 05-24-2013, 01:44 PM

Here are the post war Mauser templates for the AE on the Interarms version of the Mauser Parabellum:

The positives were used to produce negatives, which were printed on a thin transfer paper using a bitumen material. Workers would stick the bitumen transfers on the chamber, remove the transfer paper and apply an etching solution to the template. After etching, the bitumen material was removed, leaving the etched eagle behind.

03-26-2013, 03:31 PM	#3
ithacaartist Twice a Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Atop the highest hill in Schuyler County NY Posts: 3,282 Thanks: 7,007 Thanked 2,476 Times in 1,319 Posts	Eric, maybe it has changed over time! Attached Thumbnails __________________ "... Liberty is the seed and soil, the air and light, the dew and rain of progress, love and joy."-- Robert Greene Ingersoll 1894

04-25-2013, 01:21 AM	#6
Geo99 User Join Date: Apr 2012 Location: Whidbey Island WA Posts: 396 Thanks: 100 Thanked 125 Times in 74 Posts	Eagle pictures OK I figured it out. VERSION 1 (20) VERSION 2 (16) 1902 FAT BARREL VERSION (ORIGINAL) - Geo

04-25-2013, 09:11 AM	#8
ithacaartist Twice a Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Atop the highest hill in Schuyler County NY Posts: 3,282 Thanks: 7,007 Thanked 2,476 Times in 1,319 Posts	Guys, Here is another example, though not German. Attached Thumbnails __________________ "... Liberty is the seed and soil, the air and light, the dew and rain of progress, love and joy."-- Robert Greene Ingersoll 1894

04-25-2013, 08:21 PM	#10
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	The Eagle that I had a chance holding in my hand had lots of detail. But I had touched only one DWM AE, were there many variations of this crest? Attached Thumbnails

05-23-2013, 04:52 PM	#13
Parabellus User Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: SF Bay Posts: 195 Thanks: 16 Thanked 9 Times in 4 Posts	I've been counting bumps and keep coming up with 19 instead of 20. First I counted mine and then the others pictured and still get 19. __________________ Last edited by Parabellus; 05-27-2013 at 09:41 PM.

03-26-2013, 12:49 PM	#1
cirelaw Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: PORT ST LUCIE, FLORIDA Posts: 12,216 Thanks: 6,209 Thanked 4,133 Times in 2,173 Posts	Were All Eagles The Same? The Eagles are beautiful. Did the quality remain the same over the years? Were there any differences over time? Where did they obtain the dies? Were they made in Germany? Is each eagle unique to each model produced? How many different varieties are there? ~~Eric Attached Thumbnails

03-26-2013, 03:03 PM	#2
guns3545 Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Florida Posts: 435 Thanks: 649 Thanked 490 Times in 216 Posts	Eric, Die marking crests and national emblems on the chamber occurred often in DWM production years and even later in the Mauser era. It was always an option for a country purchasing for their Armed Forces. Or a freebie thrown in to win an order. Also, for commercial purposes having the national emblem on the gun gave it a certain cachet that attracted retail buyers. But to your Questions: 1. The depth and quality of the die marking varied with the age/wear of the die, the skill of the die maker and ultimately with the skill of the production personnel but was always generally good. For example, as you examine various AEs , you can see variations in the depth of the impression. 2. The Eagle is not just any Eagle. It is the Eagle on the Great Seal of the United States of America that is used on currency, buildings, badges and other official and not so official articles. There is only one true definition of the Eagle. But die makers are human and even on our currency you can detect minute differences. 3. DWM certainly manufactured their own dies. Tool and Die makers are artisans essential to gun making. 4. For American Eagle models, the symbol is always the Eagle on the Great Seal of the United States of America. But various eagles were used over time in the crests and national symbols of other royal families and countries. Hope this helps. And I agree, it is a truly wonderful symbol adorning the chamber of a truly wondrous gun. John

03-26-2013, 03:34 PM	#4
cirelaw Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: PORT ST LUCIE, FLORIDA Posts: 12,216 Thanks: 6,209 Thanked 4,133 Times in 2,173 Posts	I really love you both! I'm sure there were some issues during the thirties in Nazi Germany!!! When did the import of crested lugers to our country cease or were no longer produced by D.W.M.?

04-25-2013, 01:10 AM	#5
Geo99 User Join Date: Apr 2012 Location: Whidbey Island WA Posts: 396 Thanks: 100 Thanked 125 Times in 74 Posts	Eric, I have observed at least two different versions of the seal on 1906 AE Lugers. One version has 20 bumps and the other has only 16 bumps round the outside. When I first saw this I thought the 16 ones were fake, but I believe they are a truly different version (perhaps some other 'expert' can chime in on this). Your 1902 above has the original 20 bump version - you are right, that is a beautiful eagle. I find the earlier ones were sharper and nicer, maybe due to the dies being newer. The "E Pluribus Unum" inscription on the ribbon should always be clearly visible for guns in good condition, but I've seen some pretty poor ones on later guns. I wanted to show you an example of the other but I can't seem to attach a picture. - Geo

04-25-2013, 07:28 AM	#7
CJS57 User Join Date: Nov 2011 Posts: 224 Thanks: 0 Thanked 81 Times in 41 Posts	Thin tail and fat tail differences too. Plain breast and detailed breast is another detail. Mine is a later gun, 45xxx with 16 bump fat tail.

04-25-2013, 11:58 AM	#9
cirelaw Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: PORT ST LUCIE, FLORIDA Posts: 12,216 Thanks: 6,209 Thanked 4,133 Times in 2,173 Posts	How many Eagle varieties were there! We know the first was the 1900 Test Luger but what Eagle marked DWM luger was the last? It would be quite a collection!!!

04-26-2013, 01:01 AM	#11
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,889 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,281 Times in 423 Posts	The first Old Model produced wtith the American Eagle was sn 2002, some 4000-odd guns before the Test Eagles. --Dwight

04-26-2013, 06:15 PM	#12
Mike B Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: South Louisiana Posts: 979 Thanks: 1 Thanked 271 Times in 99 Posts	You might want to take a look at this thread; dated 2007 http://forum.lugerforum.com/showpost...86&postcount=1

05-24-2013, 01:44 PM	#15
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,031 Thanks: 1,018 Thanked 3,873 Times in 1,184 Posts	Here are the post war Mauser templates for the AE on the Interarms version of the Mauser Parabellum: The positives were used to produce negatives, which were printed on a thin transfer paper using a bitumen material. Workers would stick the bitumen transfers on the chamber, remove the transfer paper and apply an etching solution to the template. After etching, the bitumen material was removed, leaving the etched eagle behind. Attached Thumbnails