9mm? and range report

BogeyB · 08-15-2008, 10:07 AM

I took my 29 DWM Police to the range and it shot nice ( amazing what a new Mec Gar mag will do! ). I was shooting Greek Olympic 124 gr. and blue/black box Geco 124 gr. Both shot well. Two questions:

1.) I cannot for the life of me,remember where on the internet I got the above. Any ideas of where I could get some more??

2.) To the membership: What is the absoute BEST 124 gr. FMJ ammo out ther, and where to get it??

Any help will be appreciated!!

Mike

P.S. Winchester 124 gr. truncated FMJ did not shoot well. I think it's a bit too long.

Vlim · 08-15-2008, 10:46 AM

Hi Mike,

SAAMI standards usually deliver a 9mm para round that's actually too short, so I doubt that the length of the Winchester round could be the cause. Did it produce feeding issues?

The guys in the US seem to swear by the White box Winchester stuff, with normal MFJ round nose bullets.

Over here in the old world, we tend to lean towards the Sellier & Bellot 124 grain, although even their 140gr subsonics perform well.

My only objection to GeCo is that it seems to be a bit dirtier than the S&B. Need more cleaning time afterwards

The absolute best 9mm round is the one loaded to your personal (and your gun's) specifications, I guess

Ron Smith · 08-15-2008, 10:50 AM

Mike,

I've been warned away from the Greek Olympic ammo. It is said to be inconsistant and can be dangerous depending on the gun and production lot. I've been told of one instance where it damaged a Sig 229 beyond repair and slightly injured the shooter.

I would go with Gerben's suggestion of Winchester or S&B.

Ron

BogeyB · 08-15-2008, 08:06 PM

Gerben,

Yes the Win's jammed repeatedly thru four different new mags. I guess that the truncated point had a issue with the feed ramp.

Ron,

The Geco seemed "hotter" than the Olympic, but I'll err on the side of caution and heed your advice! What do you shoot??

Mike

Sieger · 08-15-2008, 11:32 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by BOGEYB
Gerben,

I guess that the truncated point had a issue with the feed ramp.

Hi:

No, the original DWM 9mm round was a truncated cone design, so the feed ramp was originally designed to feed them perfectly.

Please measure one round. It should be 29mm long. As previously stated, modern ammo is usually loaded too short. To short of ammo will hang-up in the magazine (only takes a split second) and jam the pistol.

For proper function, treat the ammo of a Luger as simply another precision part of it, as the Luger's design is very unforgiving when it comes to ammo.

Another problem may be a flat point just too wide, as compared to the original design. Some flat point and hollow point bullets currently available are just too wide to feed in that steep angle magazine design.

The only ammo that will truly function perfectly is precision hand loaded ammo tuned to your particular pistol. With proper ammo, expect amazing accuracy and reliability of function.

Sieger

Vlim · 08-16-2008, 05:10 AM

Sieger is correct about the truncated cone design.

It was introduced during the initial trial periods around 1900 - 1904 in order to improve stopping power over the ogival design. The German army switched to the ogival design in 1917 when the newly introduced MP18 showed loading/feeding difficulties when used with the truncated cone design.

These are both 1917 P08 rounds:

Other armies stuck to the truncated cone design, including the Dutch KNIL who used the design until well in the second world war. They even bought truncated cone Winchester rounds.

(image by Lewis Curtis)

Ron Smith · 08-16-2008, 09:22 AM

Mike,

I use S&B, it seems to be closed to the original specs, and functions very well in any of my shooters. I have used the white box Winchester mainly because a friend donated about a half case of it to me. It seemed to work well, but was a bit on the light side. He bought it for a Sten gun and it didn't function well in the Sten.

Ron

Vlim · 08-16-2008, 11:15 AM

Ron,

Sounds logically. The Sten machinepistol ammo was a good deal more powerful than the standard 9mm. Most boxes carry a warning that it is to be used in machineguns only.

So basically, when it says 'for machineguns/pistols' on the label, don't use it in a 70+ year old luger

unspellable · 08-19-2008, 09:15 AM

What's important about the length, is not the absolute OAL, but how the cartridge rides in the magazine. The nose must ride on the front of the magazine in such a way as to keep the cartridge at the proper angle. There should be a little space between the case mouth and the next case mouth below it. If the cartridge is too short, it will tip and contact the next one above or below for the full case length. The optimum OAL for a truncated cone will be a bit longer than for a round nose.

Also, since the cartridge must ride on the magazine front, the edge of a large open hollow point may drag.

This was originaly so designed to allow a tapered case to function in a straight magazine. Most 22 LR magazines operate on a similar principle to allow for the rim.

the mystery, is what bright boy decided the SAAMI 9 mm round should be shorter than Georg intended it to be.

Sieger · 08-19-2008, 02:17 PM

Hi:

To test for proper AOL, start with your bullets "out" and slowly decrease their lengths, as needed.

To test for proper AOL, you'll need a full magazine of test length cartridges (all exactly the same length). Manually work the toggle on all eight of them. You will notice binding, usually in the upper three cartridges. Slowly decrease the AOL of all eight of the cartridges until the binding goes away and the full magazine loads smoothly into the barrel.

Enjoy!!

Sieger

RWS · 10-14-2008, 02:31 PM

Have you ever shot through a Chrony modern 124 loads? 1100-1200 fps
These are the best ammo you can fire from your old P08s, just 1000 fps

Try to reload at 80% for your P08s, the important thing is they clycle not the stopping power. Be sure any Pistole Parabellum will be pleased.

John Sabato · 10-14-2008, 03:21 PM

RWS,

Please read this thread on posting photos... http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthre...threadid=20081

--Admin

Vlim · 10-14-2008, 04:32 PM

I wouldn't start shooting collectible ammo, though....

That stuff is worth too much intact and boxed to send it down a range.

spartacus38 · 10-14-2008, 04:40 PM

I used to shoot International Pistol shoots with a 1917 Artillery Luger

with FXO mags and 115 gr whitebox Winchester ammo (FMJ).

Worked great.

Bob

RWS · 10-16-2008, 03:13 PM

Far is the time I had boxes of boxes of these ammo, now just few for collection ... But you know what i wanted to mean, please shoot soft ammo in your collectible weapons, I have seen a couple of disasters because of modern ammo. Reloading is the safest way to preserve your weapons in good condition, but reload carefully and always 20% below the maximum load of powder charts.

JS, I know it's important to preserve the photos we post, but sometimes I feel uncapable to do rigth, I reduced the photos and tried twice to post them following the instructions but when I wanted to preview the post they weren't there!!! My pc skills wouldn't be enough, I beg you all pardon.

08-15-2008, 10:07 AM	#1
BogeyB Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Mc Donough, GA. Posts: 419 Thanks: 0 Thanked 222 Times in 96 Posts	9mm? and range report I took my 29 DWM Police to the range and it shot nice ( amazing what a new Mec Gar mag will do! ). I was shooting Greek Olympic 124 gr. and blue/black box Geco 124 gr. Both shot well. Two questions: 1.) I cannot for the life of me,remember where on the internet I got the above. Any ideas of where I could get some more?? 2.) To the membership: What is the absoute BEST 124 gr. FMJ ammo out ther, and where to get it?? Any help will be appreciated!! Mike P.S. Winchester 124 gr. truncated FMJ did not shoot well. I think it's a bit too long. __________________ MAGA Always!! NRA Benifactor, GCA

08-15-2008, 10:50 AM	#3
Ron Smith User Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Orygun Posts: 4,243 Thanks: 118 Thanked 245 Times in 150 Posts	Mike, I've been warned away from the Greek Olympic ammo. It is said to be inconsistant and can be dangerous depending on the gun and production lot. I've been told of one instance where it damaged a Sig 229 beyond repair and slightly injured the shooter. I would go with Gerben's suggestion of Winchester or S&B. Ron __________________ I Still Need DWM side plate #49... if anyone runs across a nice one. What ~Rudyard Kipling~ said...

08-15-2008, 08:06 PM	#4
BogeyB Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Mc Donough, GA. Posts: 419 Thanks: 0 Thanked 222 Times in 96 Posts	Gerben, Yes the Win's jammed repeatedly thru four different new mags. I guess that the truncated point had a issue with the feed ramp. Ron, The Geco seemed "hotter" than the Olympic, but I'll err on the side of caution and heed your advice! What do you shoot?? Mike __________________ MAGA Always!! NRA Benifactor, GCA

08-16-2008, 09:22 AM	#7
Ron Smith User Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Orygun Posts: 4,243 Thanks: 118 Thanked 245 Times in 150 Posts	Mike, I use S&B, it seems to be closed to the original specs, and functions very well in any of my shooters. I have used the white box Winchester mainly because a friend donated about a half case of it to me. It seemed to work well, but was a bit on the light side. He bought it for a Sten gun and it didn't function well in the Sten. Ron __________________ I Still Need DWM side plate #49... if anyone runs across a nice one. What ~Rudyard Kipling~ said...

08-19-2008, 09:15 AM	#9
unspellable User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Iowa Posts: 768 Thanks: 0 Thanked 19 Times in 11 Posts	Ammo length What's important about the length, is not the absolute OAL, but how the cartridge rides in the magazine. The nose must ride on the front of the magazine in such a way as to keep the cartridge at the proper angle. There should be a little space between the case mouth and the next case mouth below it. If the cartridge is too short, it will tip and contact the next one above or below for the full case length. The optimum OAL for a truncated cone will be a bit longer than for a round nose. Also, since the cartridge must ride on the magazine front, the edge of a large open hollow point may drag. This was originaly so designed to allow a tapered case to function in a straight magazine. Most 22 LR magazines operate on a similar principle to allow for the rim. the mystery, is what bright boy decided the SAAMI 9 mm round should be shorter than Georg intended it to be.

08-15-2008, 10:46 AM	#2
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,988 Times in 1,205 Posts	Hi Mike, SAAMI standards usually deliver a 9mm para round that's actually too short, so I doubt that the length of the Winchester round could be the cause. Did it produce feeding issues? The guys in the US seem to swear by the White box Winchester stuff, with normal MFJ round nose bullets. Over here in the old world, we tend to lean towards the Sellier & Bellot 124 grain, although even their 140gr subsonics perform well. My only objection to GeCo is that it seems to be a bit dirtier than the S&B. Need more cleaning time afterwards The absolute best 9mm round is the one loaded to your personal (and your gun's) specifications, I guess

08-16-2008, 05:10 AM	#6
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,988 Times in 1,205 Posts	Sieger is correct about the truncated cone design. It was introduced during the initial trial periods around 1900 - 1904 in order to improve stopping power over the ogival design. The German army switched to the ogival design in 1917 when the newly introduced MP18 showed loading/feeding difficulties when used with the truncated cone design. These are both 1917 P08 rounds: Other armies stuck to the truncated cone design, including the Dutch KNIL who used the design until well in the second world war. They even bought truncated cone Winchester rounds. (image by Lewis Curtis)

08-16-2008, 11:15 AM	#8
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,988 Times in 1,205 Posts	Ron, Sounds logically. The Sten machinepistol ammo was a good deal more powerful than the standard 9mm. Most boxes carry a warning that it is to be used in machineguns only. So basically, when it says 'for machineguns/pistols' on the label, don't use it in a 70+ year old luger

08-19-2008, 02:17 PM	#10
Sieger User Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: New York, NY Posts: 1,575 Thanks: 2,124 Thanked 400 Times in 249 Posts	Hi: To test for proper AOL, start with your bullets "out" and slowly decrease their lengths, as needed. To test for proper AOL, you'll need a full magazine of test length cartridges (all exactly the same length). Manually work the toggle on all eight of them. You will notice binding, usually in the upper three cartridges. Slowly decrease the AOL of all eight of the cartridges until the binding goes away and the full magazine loads smoothly into the barrel. Enjoy!! Sieger

10-14-2008, 02:31 PM	#11
RWS User Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Europe Posts: 34 Thanks: 2 Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts	Have you ever shot through a Chrony modern 124 loads? 1100-1200 fps These are the best ammo you can fire from your old P08s, just 1000 fps Try to reload at 80% for your P08s, the important thing is they clycle not the stopping power. Be sure any Pistole Parabellum will be pleased.

10-14-2008, 03:21 PM	#12
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,153 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	RWS, Please read this thread on posting photos... http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthre...threadid=20081 --Admin __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

10-14-2008, 04:32 PM	#13
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,988 Times in 1,205 Posts	I wouldn't start shooting collectible ammo, though.... That stuff is worth too much intact and boxed to send it down a range.

10-14-2008, 04:40 PM	#14
spartacus38 Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: South Lake Tahoe,CA. Posts: 695 Thanks: 0 Thanked 70 Times in 56 Posts	I used to shoot International Pistol shoots with a 1917 Artillery Luger with FXO mags and 115 gr whitebox Winchester ammo (FMJ). Worked great. Bob

10-16-2008, 03:13 PM	#15
RWS User Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Europe Posts: 34 Thanks: 2 Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts	Far is the time I had boxes of boxes of these ammo, now just few for collection ... But you know what i wanted to mean, please shoot soft ammo in your collectible weapons, I have seen a couple of disasters because of modern ammo. Reloading is the safest way to preserve your weapons in good condition, but reload carefully and always 20% below the maximum load of powder charts. JS, I know it's important to preserve the photos we post, but sometimes I feel uncapable to do rigth, I reduced the photos and tried twice to post them following the instructions but when I wanted to preview the post they weren't there!!! My pc skills wouldn't be enough, I beg you all pardon.