Two Erfurt LP-08's, Issued to Same Regiment

Doubs · 06-17-2002, 12:45 AM

About eight years ago I purchased a 1914 Erfurt Artillery Luger, serial number 2361 (no suffix letter). On the front grip strap it carries the markings "R.A.R.51.II.A.11." for the "Reserve Field Artillery Regiment No. 51, 2nd Division, Pistol No. 11". Mr. Reinhard Kornmayer was kind enough to provide the unit ID and brief history. The regiment seems to have seen major fighting in some of the major campaigns between late 1914 and the end of the war.

Yesterday, I bought a 1914 Erfurt Artillery Luger, serial number 6946 (no suffix letter). The unit marking on the grip back strap reads "R.A.R.51.1.B.10.".

I know that unit markings often do not follow regulations and neither of the pistols are marked strictly IAW regs. Can anyone tell me what the "B" signifies on the second pistol?

Jan C Still · 06-17-2002, 12:20 PM

Walker
R.A.R.51.1.B.10.: signifies Reserve-Field-Artillery-Regiment 51, 1 Batterie, Waffe no. 10.
Its very difficult and interesting to obtain two Lugers from the same regiment.
Jan

Doubs · 06-17-2002, 12:53 PM

Jan, thank you for your reply. I suspected that the "B" was for Battery but wanted it confirmed.

The pistol I bought Saturday was part of an estate sale that included perhaps a dozen commercial and Navy Lugers as well as several Imperial Army pistols. When I saw the unit markings on the Erfurt, I had to look twice to make sure I was seeing them correctly. I figured that finding same-regiment unit markings is uncommon and consider myself very fortunate to own such a pair.

Roadkill · 06-17-2002, 06:27 PM

Just finished John Keegan's book on WWI, terminology of the term "Reserve" was different than how I understood it. Germany had three levels of military forces, the 18-24 age group in first order, 25-36 in second "reserve" group into which all the first passed, then 37-48 of the last group. Reserve groups were called immediately in 1914 and used extensively in the major opening battles with corresponding casualties. "Reserve" means combat experienced units in WWI, not the way we (or I anyway) know them here.

rk

Jan C Still · 06-18-2002, 12:06 AM

Walker
R.A.R.51.II.A.11. belonged to the 51 Reserve Division during WWI. It likley signifies Reserve Field Artillery Regiment 51, II abteilung, weapon no 11.
Jan

Doubs · 06-18-2002, 12:41 AM

Hi Jan,

I'm going to try to post pictures of the two unit markings. Perhaps you'll be able to tell more from the images than my descriptions. Please let me know what you think.

I also note that the 51st Division included Minenwerfers (Sp?). Would they be considered "Batteries"? The divisional units list that Reinhard Kornmayer sent to me eight years ago is written in old German script, is abbreviated and my German is not good... to put it mildly!

Jan C Still · 06-19-2002, 12:00 AM

Walker
Thanks for the excellent photographs. Klaus Schad(World unit marking expert) verified the unit mark as listed above.
Jan

Doubs · 06-19-2002, 11:09 AM

Thanks to Jan, Roadkill and Klaus Schad for the answers to my questions. I'm new to the forum and I'm impressed by the expertise of the members as well as the willingness to share. Thanks again.

Roadkill · 06-19-2002, 12:56 PM

Thanks for the complement but Mr. Still is the expert, I just read too much war stuff. The term "Minenwerfer" is the same as our mortars, also sometimes called "grenatenwerfer", defined as our 60mm,82mm & 4.2" mortars, basically means explosion thrower, much different from artillery type projectiles. Definite close (less than 1000 yds) combat unit. Are you looking for a Charlie Company gun now?

RK

Doubs · 06-19-2002, 02:33 PM

Hi RK,

I agree that Mr. Still's knowledge of Lugers is on a whole different plane than my own. I do own three of his books and I refer to them often.

WW1 has been a subject of interest to me since I was a child and I've read quite a bit. However, I can always learn more and the information you provided about the meaning of "reserves" in the German Army is something I didn't know. Two books I highly recommend are Stalling's "Doughboys" and McBride's "A Rifleman Goes To War".

I owe my love of Lugers to my father who used to tell me stories of the ones he owned in the 1920's and 1930's. Sometime around 1954 or 1955 we combined our money and bought one by mail that turned out to be a Mauser mis-match. I still have it.

First impression is that the members of this board are very knowledgeable and helpful. I hope I'm able to contribute something worthwhile too.

BTW, the answer to the question about wanting a "Charlie" company pistol from the 51st is an emphatic "YES"! [img]smile.gif[/img]

Roadkill · 06-19-2002, 03:20 PM

Couple of books I liked was Toland's "1918", Keegan's "Faces of War", "Suddenly we didn't want to die",author forgotten, and the big one by Barbara Tuchman " August 1914", if you can handle the depressing part there was a movie a few years ago "Gallipoli", about the Austrailan & New Zealand debacle in Turkey that is good. Congratulations on your find, maybe you will be able to sleep normally in a few weeks,

RK

Doubs · 06-19-2002, 07:21 PM

Jan,

Looking through "Imperial Lugers" I note that on page 121, of the five 1914 Erfurt Luger's listed with unit markings, two belonged to the 234th Reserve Infantry Regiment's Machinegun Company. The 234th belonged to the 51st Reserve Division. It would appear that the 51st Reserve Division received a fair allocation of Erfurt's Artillery model output. I realize that no firm conclusions can be reached on the basis of four examples but it would be interesting to know how many the 51st received.

Jan C Still · 06-21-2002, 11:49 AM

Walker
The additional data that I have supports your observation. I have 9 unit marked 1914 Erfurt Artilleries in my data base. Five are marked to units associated with the 51 Reserve Division. I will supply more details when I figure out how to block copy to this format (My typing is a slow hunt and peck).
Jan

John Sabato · 06-21-2002, 12:28 PM

Hi Jan,

To block copy is no more difficult than it is inside one of your wordprocessing documents... just highlight the text you want to transplant, type Control-C to copy it into the edit buffer, switch to the forum and open your reply, place the cursor into the message box of the reply screen, and type Control-V to paste the text into the box...

That is all there is to it...

Try it! It is simple once you get the hang of it...

Doubs · 06-21-2002, 08:12 PM

Jan,

I look forward to the additional information. I'd like to know more about the 51st Reserve Infantry Division and looked at "Gun Show Books" site. The "History of Two Hundred and Fifty One German Divisions" wasn't available that I could find. The Gov. Printing Office doesn't offer it now either. I'll keep my eyes open for a copy.

As for "hunt and peck", I'm a seasoned veteran with one peckin' finger on each hand! [img]smile.gif[/img]

Roadkill · 06-21-2002, 09:22 PM

Ref unit markings, the seller of this gun had to get his info somewhere, maybe he has a reference you can use?
http://www.gunbroker.com/auction/Vie...p?Item=4326148

RK

Doubs · 06-22-2002, 12:29 PM

[quote]Originally posted by Roadkill:
<strong>Ref unit markings, the seller of this gun had to get his info somewhere, maybe he has a reference you can use?
http://www.gunbroker.com/auction/Vie...p?Item=4326148RK</strong><hr></blockquote>

Hi RK,

Thanks for the suggestion. I have a basic schedule of the 51st Division's activities during the war but would like a much more detailed account. I'd like to find a copy of the US Gov. printing Office's "History of 251 German Divisions" but it's not in print that I can find. I'll keep my eyes open for a used copy.

Jan C Still · 06-22-2002, 01:52 PM

Walker
Send your address and I will send you a zerox copy of the 51 st Division history from the 252 divisions reference.
Jan

Doubs · 06-23-2002, 02:32 PM

Jan,

My snail-mail address has been sent by private message. Thank you for sharing your information.

Walker

Jeff Noll · 06-24-2002, 10:44 PM

You certainly have a rare pair of lugers! My book The Imperial German Regimental Marking will solve most of your Regimental Marking translation questions. Take a look at my web site http://home.earthlink.net/~nopubl . The book also contains about 500 lugers with their Regimental Markings and translations. w/r Jeff Noll

06-17-2002, 12:45 AM	#1
Doubs User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Byron, Georgia Posts: 1,670 Thanks: 769 Thanked 1,611 Times in 525 Posts	Two Erfurt LP-08's, Issued to Same Regiment About eight years ago I purchased a 1914 Erfurt Artillery Luger, serial number 2361 (no suffix letter). On the front grip strap it carries the markings "R.A.R.51.II.A.11." for the "Reserve Field Artillery Regiment No. 51, 2nd Division, Pistol No. 11". Mr. Reinhard Kornmayer was kind enough to provide the unit ID and brief history. The regiment seems to have seen major fighting in some of the major campaigns between late 1914 and the end of the war. Yesterday, I bought a 1914 Erfurt Artillery Luger, serial number 6946 (no suffix letter). The unit marking on the grip back strap reads "R.A.R.51.1.B.10.". I know that unit markings often do not follow regulations and neither of the pistols are marked strictly IAW regs. Can anyone tell me what the "B" signifies on the second pistol?

06-21-2002, 12:28 PM	#14
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,150 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	Hi Jan, To block copy is no more difficult than it is inside one of your wordprocessing documents... just highlight the text you want to transplant, type Control-C to copy it into the edit buffer, switch to the forum and open your reply, place the cursor into the message box of the reply screen, and type Control-V to paste the text into the box... That is all there is to it... Try it! It is simple once you get the hang of it... __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

06-17-2002, 12:20 PM	#2
Jan C Still User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Box 240188, Douglas, Alaska, 99824 Posts: 463 Thanks: 0 Thanked 52 Times in 32 Posts	Walker R.A.R.51.1.B.10.: signifies Reserve-Field-Artillery-Regiment 51, 1 Batterie, Waffe no. 10. Its very difficult and interesting to obtain two Lugers from the same regiment. Jan

06-17-2002, 12:53 PM	#3
Doubs User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Byron, Georgia Posts: 1,670 Thanks: 769 Thanked 1,611 Times in 525 Posts	Jan, thank you for your reply. I suspected that the "B" was for Battery but wanted it confirmed. The pistol I bought Saturday was part of an estate sale that included perhaps a dozen commercial and Navy Lugers as well as several Imperial Army pistols. When I saw the unit markings on the Erfurt, I had to look twice to make sure I was seeing them correctly. I figured that finding same-regiment unit markings is uncommon and consider myself very fortunate to own such a pair.

06-17-2002, 06:27 PM	#4
Roadkill User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 1,632 Thanks: 1 Thanked 28 Times in 17 Posts	Just finished John Keegan's book on WWI, terminology of the term "Reserve" was different than how I understood it. Germany had three levels of military forces, the 18-24 age group in first order, 25-36 in second "reserve" group into which all the first passed, then 37-48 of the last group. Reserve groups were called immediately in 1914 and used extensively in the major opening battles with corresponding casualties. "Reserve" means combat experienced units in WWI, not the way we (or I anyway) know them here. rk

06-18-2002, 12:06 AM	#5
Jan C Still User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Box 240188, Douglas, Alaska, 99824 Posts: 463 Thanks: 0 Thanked 52 Times in 32 Posts	Walker R.A.R.51.II.A.11. belonged to the 51 Reserve Division during WWI. It likley signifies Reserve Field Artillery Regiment 51, II abteilung, weapon no 11. Jan

06-18-2002, 12:41 AM	#6
Doubs User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Byron, Georgia Posts: 1,670 Thanks: 769 Thanked 1,611 Times in 525 Posts	Hi Jan, I'm going to try to post pictures of the two unit markings. Perhaps you'll be able to tell more from the images than my descriptions. Please let me know what you think. I also note that the 51st Division included Minenwerfers (Sp?). Would they be considered "Batteries"? The divisional units list that Reinhard Kornmayer sent to me eight years ago is written in old German script, is abbreviated and my German is not good... to put it mildly!

06-19-2002, 12:00 AM	#7
Jan C Still User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Box 240188, Douglas, Alaska, 99824 Posts: 463 Thanks: 0 Thanked 52 Times in 32 Posts	Walker Thanks for the excellent photographs. Klaus Schad(World unit marking expert) verified the unit mark as listed above. Jan

06-19-2002, 11:09 AM	#8
Doubs User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Byron, Georgia Posts: 1,670 Thanks: 769 Thanked 1,611 Times in 525 Posts	Thanks to Jan, Roadkill and Klaus Schad for the answers to my questions. I'm new to the forum and I'm impressed by the expertise of the members as well as the willingness to share. Thanks again.

06-19-2002, 12:56 PM	#9
Roadkill User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 1,632 Thanks: 1 Thanked 28 Times in 17 Posts	Thanks for the complement but Mr. Still is the expert, I just read too much war stuff. The term "Minenwerfer" is the same as our mortars, also sometimes called "grenatenwerfer", defined as our 60mm,82mm & 4.2" mortars, basically means explosion thrower, much different from artillery type projectiles. Definite close (less than 1000 yds) combat unit. Are you looking for a Charlie Company gun now? RK

06-19-2002, 02:33 PM	#10
Doubs User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Byron, Georgia Posts: 1,670 Thanks: 769 Thanked 1,611 Times in 525 Posts	Hi RK, I agree that Mr. Still's knowledge of Lugers is on a whole different plane than my own. I do own three of his books and I refer to them often. WW1 has been a subject of interest to me since I was a child and I've read quite a bit. However, I can always learn more and the information you provided about the meaning of "reserves" in the German Army is something I didn't know. Two books I highly recommend are Stalling's "Doughboys" and McBride's "A Rifleman Goes To War". I owe my love of Lugers to my father who used to tell me stories of the ones he owned in the 1920's and 1930's. Sometime around 1954 or 1955 we combined our money and bought one by mail that turned out to be a Mauser mis-match. I still have it. First impression is that the members of this board are very knowledgeable and helpful. I hope I'm able to contribute something worthwhile too. BTW, the answer to the question about wanting a "Charlie" company pistol from the 51st is an emphatic "YES"! [img]smile.gif[/img]

06-19-2002, 03:20 PM	#11
Roadkill User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 1,632 Thanks: 1 Thanked 28 Times in 17 Posts	Couple of books I liked was Toland's "1918", Keegan's "Faces of War", "Suddenly we didn't want to die",author forgotten, and the big one by Barbara Tuchman " August 1914", if you can handle the depressing part there was a movie a few years ago "Gallipoli", about the Austrailan & New Zealand debacle in Turkey that is good. Congratulations on your find, maybe you will be able to sleep normally in a few weeks, RK

06-19-2002, 07:21 PM	#12
Doubs User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Byron, Georgia Posts: 1,670 Thanks: 769 Thanked 1,611 Times in 525 Posts	Jan, Looking through "Imperial Lugers" I note that on page 121, of the five 1914 Erfurt Luger's listed with unit markings, two belonged to the 234th Reserve Infantry Regiment's Machinegun Company. The 234th belonged to the 51st Reserve Division. It would appear that the 51st Reserve Division received a fair allocation of Erfurt's Artillery model output. I realize that no firm conclusions can be reached on the basis of four examples but it would be interesting to know how many the 51st received.

06-21-2002, 11:49 AM	#13
Jan C Still User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Box 240188, Douglas, Alaska, 99824 Posts: 463 Thanks: 0 Thanked 52 Times in 32 Posts	Walker The additional data that I have supports your observation. I have 9 unit marked 1914 Erfurt Artilleries in my data base. Five are marked to units associated with the 51 Reserve Division. I will supply more details when I figure out how to block copy to this format (My typing is a slow hunt and peck). Jan

06-21-2002, 08:12 PM	#15
Doubs User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Byron, Georgia Posts: 1,670 Thanks: 769 Thanked 1,611 Times in 525 Posts	Jan, I look forward to the additional information. I'd like to know more about the 51st Reserve Infantry Division and looked at "Gun Show Books" site. The "History of Two Hundred and Fifty One German Divisions" wasn't available that I could find. The Gov. Printing Office doesn't offer it now either. I'll keep my eyes open for a copy. As for "hunt and peck", I'm a seasoned veteran with one peckin' finger on each hand! [img]smile.gif[/img]

06-21-2002, 09:22 PM	#16
Roadkill User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 1,632 Thanks: 1 Thanked 28 Times in 17 Posts	Ref unit markings, the seller of this gun had to get his info somewhere, maybe he has a reference you can use? http://www.gunbroker.com/auction/Vie...p?Item=4326148 RK

06-22-2002, 12:29 PM	#17
Doubs User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Byron, Georgia Posts: 1,670 Thanks: 769 Thanked 1,611 Times in 525 Posts	[quote]Originally posted by Roadkill: <strong>Ref unit markings, the seller of this gun had to get his info somewhere, maybe he has a reference you can use? http://www.gunbroker.com/auction/Vie...p?Item=4326148RK</strong><hr></blockquote> Hi RK, Thanks for the suggestion. I have a basic schedule of the 51st Division's activities during the war but would like a much more detailed account. I'd like to find a copy of the US Gov. printing Office's "History of 251 German Divisions" but it's not in print that I can find. I'll keep my eyes open for a used copy.

06-22-2002, 01:52 PM	#18
Jan C Still User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Box 240188, Douglas, Alaska, 99824 Posts: 463 Thanks: 0 Thanked 52 Times in 32 Posts	Walker Send your address and I will send you a zerox copy of the 51 st Division history from the 252 divisions reference. Jan

06-23-2002, 02:32 PM	#19
Doubs User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Byron, Georgia Posts: 1,670 Thanks: 769 Thanked 1,611 Times in 525 Posts	Jan, My snail-mail address has been sent by private message. Thank you for sharing your information. Walker

06-24-2002, 10:44 PM	#20
Jeff Noll User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Ventura, California Posts: 45 Thanks: 0 Thanked 20 Times in 7 Posts	You certainly have a rare pair of lugers! My book The Imperial German Regimental Marking will solve most of your Regimental Marking translation questions. Take a look at my web site http://home.earthlink.net/~nopubl . The book also contains about 500 lugers with their Regimental Markings and translations. w/r Jeff Noll