Shooting with the Ideal Stock/Holster

[Dwight Gruber]

Some of you may remember this rig, profiled last August.





Now, this 1900 American Eagle Luger is a shooting gun--no original blue, buffed & otherwise worked, barrel shot nearly smooth--and the Ideal holster/stock is in equally ratty shape. Considering the small liklihood of devaluing the rig further, I decided that it was about time to find out how the combination shoots.

I shoot the Luger occasionally, the worn-out rifling gives groups just about like a shotgun pattern. Nonetheeless, its fun to take to the range just to do it, and show off a bit. Using it with the Ideal stock is an entirely different experience.

The Ideal stock looks very light and 'spidery'. Once hooked into its special grips and extended, however, it is very stable, there is nothing about it that feels flimsy or delicate (except, perhaps, the leather pouch).

The stock itself is very short. It is not uncomfortable, and the sight picture is unexpectedly good. I was astonished that the first magazine I put through it grouped almost as tightly as my stocked 1917 LP-08 at 30 feet. Not much of a test, perhaps, my being a pretty mediocre shot, but belying the suppposed inaccuracy of the barrel and putting the poor pistol grouping squarely on my own abilities. So much for ego.

Other parts of the experience were not so pleasant. The configuation of the stock attachment makes it awkward and uncomfortable to hold in the grip safety. The stock length puts one shockingly close to the substantial muzzle flash. Also, the indoor range I shoot at has a partitioned firing line, and the stock length brings the muzzle back into the partitioned area and makes the report uncomfortably loud, even with ear protection.

Into the second magazine I was developing a pretty good flinch from the flash and report, so when I looked at the resultant poor grouping I decided that it was a good experiment but time to hang it up. I do want to shoot it outside sometime to explore the difference.

It should be noted for the record that the Ideal holster/stock is legal to attach to an original American Eagle Luger, according to BATF regulations.

--Dwight

[John Sabato]

Dwight, a great report, as I don't think I have ever read a report about shooting an Ideal stocked American Eagle before.

A question please to soothe my curiosity...

How comfortable is the stock against your shoulder for firing... The thin edges of the "butt" of the metal stock would lead me to believe that this would not be a comfortable combination to shoot wearing just a T-Shirt? Am I correct in presuming that this might leave a bruise or pinch a little? Or is the recoil so light that it is of no consequence?

[Dwight Gruber]

John,

I don't have a good answer for your question. I wear a leather jacket, so the thin edges were not noticeable. I suspect that you are right, that wearing a light shirt and pulling the stock back firmly into your shoulder would not be pleasant. Just mounting the stock and putting it against a lightly shirted shoulder proves this to be true.

As far as the recoil is concerned I really didn't notice, my attention was taken up by the muzzle flash being -way- closer to my face than I am accustomed to!

If I ever have the opportunity to shoot this combination outdoors I will take particular note and give you a better answer.

--Dwight

[ViggoG]

Hi Folks, <img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" />
Lets hear from all of you who may have Knowlege of Interest in this Subject!
I have just decided to Post this correspondence to see if it will trigger some enlightening response.
Dwight,
Thanks for remembering our brief correspondence on "Firing The Eagle Luger And Ideal Holster",
I just received an E-Mail from Dwight, remembering Our correspondence relating to his first Post on this Subject.
"Shame on ME", I constructed My Ideal Repro, to Comply with the Federal C&R Rulings so that I might have a rare Shooter Combination, And would you believe it? To this day I have not yet been able to find the right time or Place to test fire My Combo. <img border="0" alt="[nono]" title="" src="graemlins/nono.gif" />
Several times I have considered getting togather with John Sabato and going to the NRA Range to try it out (If Jacketed Ammo is acceptable there).
I do not know of any other Pistol Range that is in the State of Virginia, and I do not wish to chaance the Wrath of the BATF by crossing State lines With A Pistol to visit a Range in any other State.
So I just sit here and Hope that an "Opportunity Comes To Me".
"FAT CHANCE", I know that I'm The one who has to move but I just cannot find the right time or place. <img border="0" alt="[ouch]" title="" src="graemlins/c.gif" />
Your experience of discomfort, brings a thought to mind, Was it not the accepted attire to wear a Shooters Jacket with a Padded Shoulder for A Day at the Range?
I seem to remember, at some time in the past, seeing a Photograph of a well attired gentleman wearing a Bowler Hat, Padder Shooters Jacket, Jodpurs, and Riding Boots carring a Ideal Equipped Luger at a Shooting Range Firing Station with the Targets in the Background.
Have You considered relining the barrel of your 1900 AE Shooter? As I understand it, the relining would not change the original status of the Pistol, where changing the barrel to unnumbered or different serial number might remove it from the original status.
Or as another solution Possible the use of a 22 cal Conversion Kit similar to the ERMA.
I am considering applying to the Feds for a C&R and a ruling on wheather changing the barrel from 30 cal to 9 mm would disqualify my 30 cal 1906 AE as an acceptable firearm for attachment of the Ideal.

ViggoG

[Dwight Gruber]

Viggo,

The thought of relining this barrel comes to mind occasionally. I haven't followed up on it for any number of reasons, not the least of which is not knowing of a capable and experienced barrel reliner convenient to me. Also, these .30 pencil barrels are pretty thin, I'm not sure it would even be possible.

Since your pistol is a 1906 American Eagle, and some pistols in this model were originally 9mm, I can't see where rebarreling should be a problem.

--Dwight

[John Sabato]

Viggo, please do contact the ATF about the barrel change. It only takes a few minutes and having documentation that you can share with others makes it very worthwhile...

I agree with Dwight that as long as the replacement barrel is a "repair", the caliber should be immaterial to the ATF decision on C&R Status.

Dwight, Do you have a micrometer? or a digital caliber? Just how large is the diameter of the pencil barrel at it's smallest point (probably right behind the front sight base band...) ?

Without measuring, I would guess that relining is possible with the right equipment because the liner is just a bit larger than the bore.

I have not relined anything but .22's in my history, but any good machinist should be able to conquer this task if he has the right machinery...

If I were to attempt such a task, I would precision ream the bore to the diameter of the liner but only up to the original chamber leaving it intact... but others would ream the whole barrel and then rechamber... I wouldn't want to experiment on the one barrel I wanted to end up with. I would buy a couple of shot out barrels to experiment with first.

If you can't find a decent .30 liner to meet your needs, you can turn one out of a surplus 7.65mm mauser (Argentine model) barrel and have plenty for your experiment. You could always save the original barrel to restore the gun if you wish.

Please keep us advised on your project.

[ViggoG]

John and Dwight,
A few measurements on my 7.65 1906 shows the barrel wall thickness to be .072" at thinest point just behind the front sight base.
IMO This is too thin for relining using the same metal as the original barrel metal.
I am of the opinion that the safest route would be to find a modern high strength steel of the same strength as SAE 6150 steel (Chrome molybdenium steel of the type used in automotive Leaf and Coil Springs).
Many modern custom WildCat Barrels are made from this steel because of the very high breech pressures encountered.
A little shopping around could possibly turn up a barrel made for the old 7.65 06 or larger volume case.
I would make the liner at least 75% of the thickness or .050 to .055 inch hickness.
leaving .017 to 020 inch wall of the original barrel.
I believe that this would be a safe combination if the liner were a .003" interference shrink fit with the old barrel.
This hould be accomplished by freezing the liner in Dry Ice and Acetone, and Heating the Barrel to a very dark straw temprature.
The liner must be inserted in alignment within 0.1 to 0.2 seconds, or the liner must be drilled and reamed out of the barrel and you start over.
Viggo

[John Sabato]

Viggo, please check your private messages. Thanks.

[Dwight Gruber]

Viggo,

Thanks very much for the technical assessment. All things considered I guess my shooter 1900AE stays the way it is.

--Dwight

[Dwight Gruber]

It is almost a year since my first shooting post, and I have finally found the opportunity to try the Ideal stock rig combination outdoors, as I had hoped to do. The occasion was Terry Foley's shooting-day meeting.

Indoors, remember, this is a fairly uncomfortable ensemble to shoot. Outdoors, the situation is entirely different. It is light, the sight picture remains excellent, the awkwardness of the grip safety is lost in the stability and low recoil of the combination--Terry noted the low recoil particularly. Muzzle flash and report is not an issue outdoors.

The only noteable problem is that there is enough play in the telescoping stock that if you really pull it into your shoulder, the stock compresses just enough to unlock from the grips--disconcerting, and avoidable.

If I had an American Eagle shooting Luger with a better barrel I might actually shoot this combination from time to time.

--Dwight