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Unread 01-02-2021, 02:17 PM   #1
banjomike
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Default Ideal Luger Stock with US markings

Yesterday I purchased a Ideal Luger stock. I,m familiar with the brand, but this stock has a flaming bomb on the pistol end and is marked on the other " US Property". Can anyone help with more information. I am a brand new member as of today. I have many more items to post once I learn the system. Thanks Banjomike PS I would like to purchase a set of grips for this stock. BM
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Unread 01-02-2021, 03:30 PM   #2
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Welcome to the Forum.

Pics would be very helpful, thanks.

G2
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Unread 01-03-2021, 07:02 AM   #3
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https://www.icollector.com/Rare-DWM-...Stock_i9752741

IIRC a few were purchased by U.S. for the pistol trials -

Last edited by schutzen-jager; 01-03-2021 at 07:27 AM. Reason: spelling
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Unread 01-07-2021, 10:45 AM   #4
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Default Luger stock

Thank you for trying to help with the mystery of this stock. So far I have not found any concrete info. The links offered just show a stock on the trials or test Luger. This not enough info to link the stock to the trials. I will post a photo as soon as I learn how to do it. Banjomike PS The Test Luger serial numbers start at 6000 The stock numbers are 5600. Guns should match if issued together. BM
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Unread 01-07-2021, 02:26 PM   #5
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Default Jmho

very doubtful if U.S. made stocks would have number corresponding to numbers on German made pistols as they were procured separately -
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Unread 01-07-2021, 03:59 PM   #6
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Ideal stocks were commercial - and bought by someone - I have never heard of one being used for the test trials, although anything is possible.

I have never heard of a stock or pistol marked US Property (like a 1911 is )

Posting pictures is fairly easy, just follow the directions in New Collectors area - advanced, attachments and upload
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Unread 01-07-2021, 06:29 PM   #7
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Back in 2013 a collector purchased at an Amoskeg auction a 1900 American Eagle Luger that was thought to be a preliminary sample of the U.S. Test Trials Luger. The gun was stamped with Ordinance “flaming bomb” markings and it had Ideal grips. The inside of the metal portion of the grips were also stamped with Ordnance bombs and “U.S. Property”, and the grips were numbered to the gun “5673”. There is no record of the serial numbers of any pre-trial test guns and there is no record of official purchase of Ideal grips and stock by the U.S. Army. Given the lack of documentation or other provenance, the authenticity of any “U.S. Property/flaming bomb” Ideal grips and stock falls somewhere on the continuum of “unknown->unlikely->dubious->fake”, and in light of no recorded verification I am inclined to opt for “dubious” at best.

In the unlikely event that there is some veracity to the association of the Ideal stock/holster to official U.S. Army acquisition it would seem that the stock you have numbered “5600“ is precariously close to the serial number of the aforementioned 1900 AE Luger and grips and possibly all have the same origin, official or unofficial. It might be neat to have them all together.

Looking forward to your photos!
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Unread 01-08-2021, 11:27 AM   #8
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if i remember correctly over 30 years ago Guns + Ammo ran a monthly column on Lugers - IIRC one of them mentioned the Ideal stock being used by a cavalry unit during the trials - i still have the magazines but they are all packed + going to auction -
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Unread 01-09-2021, 04:39 PM   #9
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Hi Nice to see you got the ideal stock that matches my early luger # 5673...with the ordinance bombs..with Ideal grips...also numbered 5673 to the same gun....with Property of US Springfield. But I am missing the actual stock.

Its interesting that the serial associate are all in the 5600 range! So its guns used before the KNOWN US test range 6200-7200.
I believe these early guns were still on hand when they tried out the ideal stock...at a later date (not 1901 era)

It would help to document the gun I have and hope I can see some photos.
Clearly, Springfield had bought some ideal stock and placed them with the gun...but they were separated.
I knew it would be found someday....my gun also appeared ina NRA magazine a few years ago.
I hope we can contact each other and discuss...I still need in the process to document the gun in its historical context.
Since your number is close but not the same...it adds an extra proof that it was not faked since a faker would want to have the same number..and keep the parts together.
the fact that it was all separated long ago proves to me its authentic.
Of course, the markings must show the correct age and halos around the stampings.
This is very exciting news. I also have to thank Ron Wood for contacting me...what a great friend and gentleman. But we all know that! he is the best!
Please contact me at tallsound@yahoo.com
Thanks
Mark
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Unread 01-09-2021, 09:54 PM   #10
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Ron is "dubious", I am less certain; too many flaming bombs, and I doubt totally that a
grip would be marked "U.S. Property".

Creative boosting of lugers has been "happening" for decades, perhaps now for even a century.
JMHO.
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Unread 01-09-2021, 10:36 PM   #11
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I was in the military for 23 years. Property stamps were common in armories...look at the Army 1909, and 1911s..same period. Trying to keep it from being stolen. This stuff was not kept in safes. Sure it did not work..but they did not know that then...its was regulations...stuff went missing..esp small stuff....and the stocks went missing easily.

Neither of us was there..so your hunch is as good as mine. One of us has looked under bright light and a scope. Wait till you hold the gun in your hand and look at the brown patina is the stamps and the stamp halos...you can only see the deep brown under high light.

I know what I found - the people that seen it know what i found.....and am not worried 'bout it too much at night when I sleep. But thanks for the 2 cents.

I just want the stock..thanks.
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Unread 01-10-2021, 01:39 PM   #12
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Default Ideal Luger Stock

Well gentlemen, Your were all wrong. Luger stock #5673 has been found!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! When I first posted I said the serial number was 5600. I did not want to post the correct number. I think this opens up a new serial number range for the Trials range. I want to thank all who chimed in, but some remarks hurt a little. I have been a full time firearms dealer for 52 years dealing in rare guns of all types. I know in this computer world no one trusts anyone and everyone is an expert. I posted because I had a feeling this stock was unique, and I was correct. I still want to thank all who responded. Banjomike Mike Hashem Old Post Office Antiques, Ossipee NH
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Unread 01-10-2021, 03:06 PM   #13
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Yep...Mike and I were right (thanks for email)...same serial number..
So...this was a real gun from the Springfield armory...and was serialized to match a 1900 luger that SPINGFILED Armoury already had on hand...for whatever reason.

Remember the 1901 SA document (paper) states that 2 commercial lugers were procured from "Mr Tauscher" (German importer for DWM in 1901 era.
One was destroyed in a rust test. The other was given hammer blows to see if it would fire if dropped from a horse. 5673, below, has about 14 large hammer blows on the toggle...and with bright light turn brown with patena.

They did not want to lose the small grips and stock...and tried to stamp a serial number on it..to try to keep it together. Even the mag was serialized in period sheriffs!

And the fact that the stock was separated long ago enforces my thesis that its not a recent fake...but long separated from the gun.

Glad I held on to it...glad I believed in it. I never lost faith.

Thanks again to Ron who got us all together again after 120 years.

This is what makes a luger forum so great..to bring together the history of the luger.

I added photos of the wood base...see how old that wood stamp is????...new stamps look totally different...the wood has actually swelled (raised!) around the 1902 era stamping..also note flaming "bomb" German zodiac proof found on all test era lugers.

The German proof was made just a few months before the Springfield army proof....same color and patina!

Would like Ron to take a look at that cool photo of the wood base!

Imperial (and navy) collectors! We all can spot a real imperial number mag bottom...compared to a mag bottom stamped recently...right? tells me a lot.

There should be a celebration...and no bad feelings. I knew there was more to the story.

Some day...someone will find more evidence ..hopefully, a document.

Peace and love and joy of the new year!
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Last edited by whitehat; 01-10-2021 at 05:37 PM.
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Unread 01-10-2021, 05:26 PM   #14
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More photos of the First US test Luger #5673.
As an Imperial collector..I know old wood stamping when I see it...take a look.

And those halos around the metal! Yes, baby!

Nice to talk to you Ron!...best wishes on your procedure tomorrow!
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Unread 01-10-2021, 05:35 PM   #15
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Here is the actual document I found showing that the US army asked to test 2 1900 lugers...before the 6200 contract range.1901 Proceedings from Springfield test. FYI.

Remember the 1901 SA document (paper) states that 2 commercial lugers were procured from "Mr Tauscher" (German importer for DWM in 1901 era.

One was destroyed in a rust test - see below docs. The other was given hammer blows to see if it would fire if dropped from a horse. 5673 has about 14 large hammer blows on the toggle...and with bright light ...turns brown with patena.

And come on....#5673 was just before the 6200-7200 Army contract range....just a coincidence? Way too close.
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Last edited by whitehat; 01-11-2021 at 12:28 AM.
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Unread 01-10-2021, 06:09 PM   #16
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Michael,
Thank you for that update identifying the serial number of your Ideal stock as 5673! That is a big relief to me as your originally stated serial number of 5600 would seem to indicate that at least 74 Ideal stock/holsters had been U.S. Ordnance marked and serial numbered. Given the lack of other surviving examples or corroborating documentation that is most unlikely!

I have known about Mark’s (Whitehat) Luger and Ideal grips for a long time and have been generally dismissive with regard to their authenticity. However, in all fairness I have to acknowledge the possibility. The best rationale for such an otherwise dubious circumstance that I can entertain is the notion that someone with relatively high authority in the U.S. Ordnance department had sufficient interest and discretionary funds to make an exploratory purchase of the Ideal rig ancillary to the official Luger Test Trial contract. Being a totally commercial transaction to acquire items that then would become government property would tend to support the Ordnance property marking of the Ideal items and a corresponding association of them with the Luger for inventory purposes. I know that is a stretch, but not totally outside the realm of possibility, at least I would like to think so.

So, at the least, this unique set of items deserves to be reunited. I would like to see Mark be able to acquire the stock to go with his gun and grips to preserve a possible (if perhaps questionably probable) complete example of U.S. history. If any of you folks out there have a spare Ideal stock that Mark could acquire as trading material to Michael for his stock it would be gratifying and mutually beneficial gesture all around.
Ron

P.S. In case you are wondering about Mark's best wishes for my procedure tomorrow, it is for a cardiac ablation. Not a big deal, but a kind thought or two from my friends is appreciated.
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Unread 01-10-2021, 06:47 PM   #17
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Will say a prayer that all goes well.
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Unread 01-10-2021, 08:54 PM   #18
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Nice work banjomike, whitehat and Ron Wood ... I find the spirit and enthusiasm of this story to be infectious and hopefully we will see them together one day soon ... fingers crossed.

Be well Ron ... just got off the table from back surgery myself.
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Unread 01-10-2021, 10:13 PM   #19
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Ron,
I hope your procedure is a complete success and that you have a rapid recovery. Mark
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Unread 01-11-2021, 01:37 PM   #20
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Thanks, Ron for the support.

Question.
Anyone on the luger forum has an Ideal stock with grips for sale? This is what Mike wants.
please contact me at tallsound@yahoo.com
Thanks so much for your kind consideration
Mark
Disabled 23 year Army vet.
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