Ventilated holster...

PRD1 · 06-03-2019, 12:35 PM

Every so often, we find a relic of some past war which 'gives one to think'...
This 1915-dated Luger holster has a couple of non-standard 'features'. It appears from inspection that the entry point was at the back and rear of the holster. If so, the wearer may not have been aware of the near miss. Of course, other rounds may not have missed...

PRD1 - mhb - MIke

George Anderson · 06-03-2019, 12:43 PM

The two holes were put there during the Weimar era to accommodate a string/cord that was run through the holes to assure that the pistol was not removed during storage.

PRD1 · 06-03-2019, 12:54 PM

although the holes do not appear to have been made with a proper leather punch. Also, the geometry does not appear logical for retention of the pistol in the holster, being oddly placed either for passage of the cord through the trigger guard or over the butt. Do you have any illustrations of the type of holster modification you refer to?

Thanks;

PRD1 - mhb - MIke

DonVoigt · 06-03-2019, 12:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PRD1

although the holes do not appear to have been made with a proper leather punch. Also, the geometry does not appear logical for retention of the pistol in the holster, being oddly placed either for passage of the cord through the trigger guard or over the butt. Do you have any illustrations of the type of holster modification you refer to?

Thanks;

PRD1 - mhb - MIke

Mike,
It is a known modification, and while it may not seem "logical", it is illustrated in Goertz and Sturgess.
The cord was sealed with a lead seal , IIRC.

The cord and seal were not for "retention" only to show that the pistol was "in" the holster and had not been removed or "monkeyed" with. The fact that the hole was not "punched" is irrelevant to its use.

With over 1800 pages in G and S, and a not so hot index, it may take me a while to find the page!

PRD1 · 06-03-2019, 01:06 PM

Thanks, Don! It does seem odd, though. It would have been more logical (Germanic!) to pass a cord and seal either through the holster in such a way as to positively retain the pistol in the holster, or through the flap in such a way as to prevent removal of the pistol... Oh, well, live and learn!

PRD1 - mhb - MIke

DonVoigt · 06-03-2019, 01:52 PM

Mike,
the pistol cannot be removed without cutting the cord; provided the cord is positioned correctly. For sure some ways to route the string do not offer any security, but I think the idea was to prevent the holster from being opened without cutting the string.

It's purpose was to tell at a glance that the pistol was "ready" for issue or use- I suppose.

There is also reported to be a picture in Bender's holster book,
but I can't find it today either.

Maybe someone will chime in with a book/page reference!

wlyon · 06-03-2019, 02:41 PM

Page 49 Still's "Weimar and Early Nazi Lugers" shows a good example of the string and seal. Bill

DonVoigt · 06-03-2019, 03:33 PM

Thanks Bill.
Here is a couple pictures of my "security holster" with "string.
I didn't have a seal, and gave the string an "extra" wrap around the grip.

I can envision a tag on the string also, with info and serial number of the pistol, to make recording data for transfer from stock to a smaller issuing entity easier, and then finally to the ultimate user.

Applying the "seal" and tag to an inspected, test fired, and cleaned pistol, would have been way more efficient than having to look at the pistol for the serial number each time it was "moved"

JMHO.

PRD1 · 06-03-2019, 04:26 PM

Thanks, again, Don!
But your photo, if typical of the Weimar-modified holsters, brings up a couple of questions, at least in my mind:
Are there one or two holes in the holster for the string to pass through?
Where is a second hole, if present, located?
Is/are the hole, or holes, cleanly punched?
I can see how a single hole placed as the photo shows makes sense for passing a security tie around the pistol, but the front hole in my holster is not located quite where the single hole shown in the photo appears to be, and then, of course, there is the second hole.
I've been observing bullet holes and other effects in various materials, objects and critters for nearly 60 years, and the holes in my holster look very much like a bullet passed through them...
Still curious...

PRD1 - mhb - MIke

wlyon · 06-03-2019, 07:34 PM

On page 49 of Still's Weimar and Early Nazi book is a good picture of holster and string/seal. Bill

JTD · 06-03-2019, 07:41 PM

Trust us, it is NOT a bullet hole. A bullet at that angle would have cut a slot, or oval. The workers punch was probably worn out.

Ron Wood · 06-03-2019, 07:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PRD1

...I've been observing bullet holes and other effects in various materials, objects and critters for nearly 60 years, and the holes in my holster look very much like a bullet passed through them...
Still curious...
PRD1 - mhb - MIke

From your photos, if "a bullet passed through them", it must have been from a bb gun.
Ron

PRD1 · 06-03-2019, 09:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ron Wood

From your photos, if "a bullet passed through them", it must have been from a bb gun.
Ron

The appearance of the holes fits very well with the action of a bullet passing through a tough but resilient material: the central perforation reflects that portion of the material which is disintegrated/punched-out by the projectile, while the full diameter of the projectile is fairly closely approximated by the outside diameter of the area affected by its passage. The material closes somewhat after perforation, giving the appearance seen in the photos. The outside diameter of the affected areas in this case measures between .310" and .320", which agrees quite well with the common rifle calibers of the era.
Next time I get to the range, I think I will take an old holster or two and shoot it/them and see what the result is.

PRD1 - mhb - MIke

DonVoigt · 06-03-2019, 09:51 PM

Mike,
No way a "bullet" made the holes.
As I said and showed in the picture, two similar small holes in the near exact same location were put there intentionally for the purpose illustrated.

See the picture mentioned by Bill, if you have the book.

MikeP · 06-03-2019, 09:57 PM

Not a bullet hole by any means. No amount of wishful thinking will make it so. I had a Nambu holster from a vet friend that did have a through and through bullet hole. More of a tear than a round hole.

PRD1 · 06-04-2019, 09:50 AM

Unfortunately, I do not have the book. I'd still like to see the photo(s), though.

PRD1 - mhb - MIke

DonVoigt · 06-04-2019, 02:01 PM

Looks like the picture I posted, but with a prettier string.

When I get time I'll scan it and post.

gunbugs · 06-05-2019, 01:26 AM

If a pistol were in the holster when the bullet passed through, one of two things would happen.
1. The bullet would possibly lodge in the gun.
2. If the bullet passed through the gun, it would be deformed and probably travelling sideways, and would not make a pretty, round hole. Plus, pieces of the gun would be blown out the side of the holster, causing significant damage.
Your holster does not have a bullet hole. Even if the gun were out of the holster, a bullet would tear the leather, not punch a nice, round hole. In fabric, perhaps, in leather, not, especially on the exit side.

kurusu · 06-06-2019, 04:03 PM

Just shoot it.

PRD1 · 06-06-2019, 08:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kurusu

Just shoot it.

I'm gonna do that - but not with the holster that already has 'ventilation'

06-03-2019, 12:35 PM	#1
PRD1 User Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: S.E. AZ Posts: 69 Thanks: 18 Thanked 32 Times in 8 Posts	Ventilated holster... Every so often, we find a relic of some past war which 'gives one to think'... This 1915-dated Luger holster has a couple of non-standard 'features'. It appears from inspection that the entry point was at the back and rear of the holster. If so, the wearer may not have been aware of the near miss. Of course, other rounds may not have missed... PRD1 - mhb - MIke Attached Thumbnails __________________ Sancho! My armor!

06-03-2019, 12:54 PM	#3
PRD1 User Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: S.E. AZ Posts: 69 Thanks: 18 Thanked 32 Times in 8 Posts	That is certainly possible... although the holes do not appear to have been made with a proper leather punch. Also, the geometry does not appear logical for retention of the pistol in the holster, being oddly placed either for passage of the cord through the trigger guard or over the butt. Do you have any illustrations of the type of holster modification you refer to? Thanks; PRD1 - mhb - MIke __________________ Sancho! My armor!

06-03-2019, 01:06 PM	#5
PRD1 User Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: S.E. AZ Posts: 69 Thanks: 18 Thanked 32 Times in 8 Posts	Thanks, Don! It does seem odd, though. It would have been more logical (Germanic!) to pass a cord and seal either through the holster in such a way as to positively retain the pistol in the holster, or through the flap in such a way as to prevent removal of the pistol... Oh, well, live and learn! PRD1 - mhb - MIke __________________ Sancho! My armor!

06-03-2019, 01:52 PM	#6
DonVoigt User Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: near Charlotte NC Posts: 4,677 Thanks: 1,439 Thanked 4,347 Times in 2,038 Posts	Mike, the pistol cannot be removed without cutting the cord; provided the cord is positioned correctly. For sure some ways to route the string do not offer any security, but I think the idea was to prevent the holster from being opened without cutting the string. It's purpose was to tell at a glance that the pistol was "ready" for issue or use- I suppose. There is also reported to be a picture in Bender's holster book, but I can't find it today either. Maybe someone will chime in with a book/page reference! __________________ 03man(Don Voigt); Luger student and collector. Looking for DWM side plate: 69 ; Dreyse 1907 pistol K.S. Gendarmerie

06-03-2019, 02:41 PM	#7
wlyon Lifer 2X Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: May 2005 Location: Somewhere in Montana Posts: 2,614 Thanks: 3,140 Thanked 2,519 Times in 939 Posts	Page 49 Still's "Weimar and Early Nazi Lugers" shows a good example of the string and seal. Bill __________________ Bill Lyon

06-03-2019, 12:43 PM	#2
George Anderson Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: VA Posts: 3,592 Thanks: 1,769 Thanked 2,527 Times in 786 Posts	The two holes were put there during the Weimar era to accommodate a string/cord that was run through the holes to assure that the pistol was not removed during storage.

06-03-2019, 03:33 PM	#8
DonVoigt User Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: near Charlotte NC Posts: 4,677 Thanks: 1,439 Thanked 4,347 Times in 2,038 Posts	Thanks Bill. Here is a couple pictures of my "security holster" with "string. I didn't have a seal, and gave the string an "extra" wrap around the grip. I can envision a tag on the string also, with info and serial number of the pistol, to make recording data for transfer from stock to a smaller issuing entity easier, and then finally to the ultimate user. Applying the "seal" and tag to an inspected, test fired, and cleaned pistol, would have been way more efficient than having to look at the pistol for the serial number each time it was "moved" JMHO. Attached Thumbnails __________________ 03man(Don Voigt); Luger student and collector. Looking for DWM side plate: 69 ; Dreyse 1907 pistol K.S. Gendarmerie

06-03-2019, 04:26 PM	#9
PRD1 User Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: S.E. AZ Posts: 69 Thanks: 18 Thanked 32 Times in 8 Posts	Thanks, again, Don! But your photo, if typical of the Weimar-modified holsters, brings up a couple of questions, at least in my mind: Are there one or two holes in the holster for the string to pass through? Where is a second hole, if present, located? Is/are the hole, or holes, cleanly punched? I can see how a single hole placed as the photo shows makes sense for passing a security tie around the pistol, but the front hole in my holster is not located quite where the single hole shown in the photo appears to be, and then, of course, there is the second hole. I've been observing bullet holes and other effects in various materials, objects and critters for nearly 60 years, and the holes in my holster look very much like a bullet passed through them... Still curious... PRD1 - mhb - MIke __________________ Sancho! My armor!

06-03-2019, 07:34 PM	#10
wlyon Lifer 2X Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: May 2005 Location: Somewhere in Montana Posts: 2,614 Thanks: 3,140 Thanked 2,519 Times in 939 Posts	On page 49 of Still's Weimar and Early Nazi book is a good picture of holster and string/seal. Bill __________________ Bill Lyon

06-03-2019, 07:41 PM	#11
JTD User Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: PA Posts: 424 Thanks: 214 Thanked 407 Times in 148 Posts	Trust us, it is NOT a bullet hole. A bullet at that angle would have cut a slot, or oval. The workers punch was probably worn out.

06-03-2019, 09:51 PM	#14
DonVoigt User Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: near Charlotte NC Posts: 4,677 Thanks: 1,439 Thanked 4,347 Times in 2,038 Posts	Mike, No way a "bullet" made the holes. As I said and showed in the picture, two similar small holes in the near exact same location were put there intentionally for the purpose illustrated. See the picture mentioned by Bill, if you have the book. __________________ 03man(Don Voigt); Luger student and collector. Looking for DWM side plate: 69 ; Dreyse 1907 pistol K.S. Gendarmerie

06-03-2019, 09:57 PM	#15
MikeP User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: ILL Posts: 686 Thanks: 36 Thanked 452 Times in 198 Posts	Not a bullet hole by any means. No amount of wishful thinking will make it so. I had a Nambu holster from a vet friend that did have a through and through bullet hole. More of a tear than a round hole.

06-04-2019, 09:50 AM	#16
PRD1 User Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: S.E. AZ Posts: 69 Thanks: 18 Thanked 32 Times in 8 Posts	Don: Unfortunately, I do not have the book. I'd still like to see the photo(s), though. PRD1 - mhb - MIke __________________ Sancho! My armor!

06-04-2019, 02:01 PM	#17
DonVoigt User Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: near Charlotte NC Posts: 4,677 Thanks: 1,439 Thanked 4,347 Times in 2,038 Posts	Looks like the picture I posted, but with a prettier string. When I get time I'll scan it and post. __________________ 03man(Don Voigt); Luger student and collector. Looking for DWM side plate: 69 ; Dreyse 1907 pistol K.S. Gendarmerie

06-05-2019, 01:26 AM	#18
gunbugs Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Sep 2013 Location: Fairbanks, Alaska. Home of the best moose. Posts: 635 Thanks: 335 Thanked 1,139 Times in 377 Posts	If a pistol were in the holster when the bullet passed through, one of two things would happen. 1. The bullet would possibly lodge in the gun. 2. If the bullet passed through the gun, it would be deformed and probably travelling sideways, and would not make a pretty, round hole. Plus, pieces of the gun would be blown out the side of the holster, causing significant damage. Your holster does not have a bullet hole. Even if the gun were out of the holster, a bullet would tear the leather, not punch a nice, round hole. In fabric, perhaps, in leather, not, especially on the exit side.

06-06-2019, 04:03 PM	#19
kurusu User Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 1,225 Thanks: 2,679 Thanked 929 Times in 509 Posts	If you really want a "ventilated" holster Just shoot it.