Sleeve Insertion

Jack Owens · 06-21-2002, 04:54 PM

Dear Friends,

I just sent the barrel of my artillery Luger off to The Gun Rack, 12461 Adams Street, Brooksville, FL 34613 to have it drilled out and a rifled sleeve inserted.

Stay tuned.

Regards.
Jack

Doug G. · 06-21-2002, 09:10 PM

Just FYI. When you get the gun back make sure to check it over good. I had them re-line a C-96 five + years ago. While it functioned fine the attention to detail left something to be desired. One of the guns I had done was bored off center and the breach sides were a little rough. I hope this was due to the fact that they were C-96's.

Hugh · 06-22-2002, 01:52 AM

I had a 30 Mauser C96 rebored to 9mm by Redmonds and they did a great job for $100. <img src="graemlins/r.gif" border="0" alt="[king]" />

Jack Owens · 06-22-2002, 05:16 AM

Along with checking The Gun Rack, I wrote to Redman's Rifling & Reboring about putting a sleeve in my artillery, but I was told they don't work on Lugar artilleries. So as of this date I know of no one else who does that specific job.

Karl · 06-22-2002, 10:43 AM

Tell me more - I'm interested in getting a barrel sleeved. What is contact info for Redmonds/Redman's? What are other reputable shops for this work? How long does it take? Do they have to remove the barrel from the receiver?
KFS

Hugh · 06-22-2002, 03:26 PM

Redman's Rifling & Reboring, 189 Nichols Rd, Omak, WA 98841, ph: 509-826-5512.

Broomhandle Mauser bbls rebored to 9mm= $90; relined to 7.63 Mauser=$100

Call or write them for a price list.

Other bbl reliners from GUN LIST, I do not have 1st hand experience with their work:

Beinke & Beinke, 4520 Anderson, Klamath Falls, OR 97603, ph. 541-882-3371.

Craig Rittenhouse,104 Valley Rd., Tamaqua, PA 18252, SASE or ph. 570-277-0381 <img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" />

Karl · 07-01-2002, 02:29 PM

FYI, I finally got in touch with Redman's Rifling and Reboring. They do not sleeve 9mm Lugers but they can rebore a 7.65 Luger to 9mm.

I would appreciate recommendations anyone has for a good shop for having a 9mm Luger sleeved. KFS

Doubs · 07-01-2002, 06:41 PM

A few years back I contacted Redmonds about reboring/chambering a 7.63 C-96 barrel to 9mm. I was advised that he would not use a chamber sleeve to headspace the Luger cartridge. He suggested seating the bullet out to contact the rifling in order to establish the correct headspacing. I was not satisfied with the results. The work by Redmond's was competent enough but trying to get correct headspacing by seating the bullets out just didn't work. I sold the pistol. At a later date I requested that Redmond's rechamber and rebore another C-96 to 9mm but with a chamber bushing for headspacing. I was flatly refused.

If I were to have another C-96 done by Redmonds, it would be in the original 7.63 chambering. After my experience with the 9mm, I wouldn't do it again unless there was a chamber bushing.

That's my experience and it's neither a condemnation of, nor endorsement for Redmonds. The work was competent except that without the chamber bushing, consistently headspacing the cartridges proved to be impossible.

Karl · 07-01-2002, 08:23 PM

Thanks Doubs,

I have continued to search for a shop that will sleeve a Luger. Beinke & Beinke do not sleeve lugers nor does Craig Ritterhouse listed above. I was referred to Mentor Arms Company as a shop that specializes in lugers but their phone has been disconnected. If there is a reputable shop (or two) that sleeves lugers I suggest that their contact information be included in the links section of the old web site for future reference.

There must be a market for sleeving Luger barrels, especially with the inflated prices of recent years. In my experience there are lots of well-preserved lugers out there with the exception of a pitted bore. KFS

Roadkill · 07-01-2002, 08:36 PM

Gentlemen, once again I'll reveal my ignorance regarding Lugers, but what the hell. Instead of sleeving & relining a Luger, would it be possible to rebore it and then increase the bullet size? Increase bore diameter enough to remove bad areas, then slug bore, get sized bullets, adjust chamber then reload with a stretched case? Please don't laugh too hard.

RK

Herb · 07-01-2002, 09:41 PM

Found these for you guys, all of them advertise as doing barrel work of some type, including sleeving.
http://www.m-s-co.com/sso/whereto.html
http://www.precisiongunstocks.com/pgw_other.html
http://www.piscogunsmithing.com/services.html
http://pub109.ezboard.com/fparallaxs...rmsforumsfrm54
http://www.shotgunnews.com/gunad/adi...g?nclass=S5540
Whew, hope I got them right. Good luck!

unspellable · 07-01-2002, 11:54 PM

In the beginning there was the 7.65 Borchardt cartridge. Loaded up for the 7.63 Mauser with no significant change of diminsion. Then shortend to form the 7.65 mm Parabellum.

DWM's first attempt at a 9 mm Luger cartridge was the 7.65 mm Parabellum necked up to 9 mm. This resulted in a bottle necked case with a shoulder either to too small for reliable headspacing or just too small to bother with. The next attempt was a taperd case and the 9 mm Parabellum was born.

My point is that if you bore out a 7.65 Parabellum or a 7.63 Mauser chamber, there will be an area where the should was that will be larger in diameter than a 9 mm chamber, resulting in an odd shaped chamber with a "ring bulge" in it. The shoulder on the bottle necked cartridges is larger in diameter than the corresponding point on the 9 mm Parabellum case. Seems to me that to get a proper chamber you would be forced to sleeve it.

unspellable

Ron Wood · 07-02-2002, 12:04 AM

NoÃ?Â«l, That is some neat information on DWM's first attempt at a 9mm cartridge that resulted in a slightly bottlenecked cartridge. Where did you find that info? I had always assumed that the 9mm Parabellum evolved directly from the 7.65mm.

Karl · 07-02-2002, 03:44 PM

Unspellable,

Thanks for the information. Perhaps this difference in chamber shape has something to do with Doubs' headspace difficulties with the rebored C96.

Still, Redmonds must do a lot of these reborings and one would think that if there were lots of dissatisfied customers they would change their practices accordingly.

What are the potential consequences of the slightly different chamber shape? It would be interesting to hear from others who have had a 7.63/7.65 to 9mm rebore. How does the fired brass compare with that of a normal 9mm? KFS

unspellable · 07-03-2002, 12:44 AM

Ron,

I can't say where I first learned about the evolution of the 9 mm Parabellum cartridge but the first reference that falls to hand is The Luger Book by John Walter, 1986 edition, Entry A39 Ammunition Register, part ix. There it lists DWM case 480 bottle necked, 480A bottle necked, 480B straight, and 480C tapered, the last becoming the 9mm Parabellum we all know and love.

If a 9 mm Parabellum cartridge were to be fired in a chamber bored out from 7.65 mm Parabellum I would expect the fired case to have blown out to a slight shoulder like 480 or 480A. If it were fired in a chamber bored out from 7.63 Mauser I would expect the mouth to expand to an oversized diminsion and take very few resizings before cracking at the neck. This wouldn't matter too much for throw away cases, but it wouldn't contribute anything to accuracy.

You all realize of course that DWM made a few Lugers chambered in the bottle necked 9 mm cartridge. It's the one they took to England when they tried to sell it to the Brits. All you have to do is find one in an attic someplace. But don't get too excited yet, it would have been easy for the tool room to rebarrel them.

unspellable

Dwight Gruber · 07-04-2002, 01:08 AM

Does Gale Morgan do barrel sleeving?

--Dwight

Karl · 07-09-2002, 12:37 PM

Jack,

Did the barrel come back from the Gun Rack yet? When I spoke to Gun Rack on the phone they said that turnaround time was about two weeks. I'm about to send them a barrel/receiver as well because they seem to be the only place I can find that will sleeve a Luger to 9mm. It would be nice to hear from a satisfied customer before I take the plunge. [img]frown.gif[/img]

Jack Owens · 07-09-2002, 02:46 PM

Dear Karl,

No news as of this date. I'll post a preliminary evaluation of the job as soon as I get the barrel back and a shooting evaluation later.

Regards,
Jack

geoda · 07-10-2002, 10:00 AM

I am the proud owner of a C96 that the gun rack relined,shoots great,great workmanship.I have nothing but praise for them

Jack Owens · 07-23-2002, 07:06 PM

Dear Friends,

Earlier I told of sending an artillery barrel off to the Gun Rack for the insertion of a sleeve. For those who may have been waiting for some news regarding the result, I sent it off 6/21/02 and have heard nothing since. Today I'm sending a followup letter of inquiry.

Stay tuned.
Regards,
Jack

06-21-2002, 04:54 PM	#1
Jack Owens User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Porterville, California Posts: 27 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Sleeve Insertion Dear Friends, I just sent the barrel of my artillery Luger off to The Gun Rack, 12461 Adams Street, Brooksville, FL 34613 to have it drilled out and a rifled sleeve inserted. Stay tuned. Regards. Jack

06-21-2002, 09:10 PM	#2
Doug G. User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Illinois Posts: 713 Thanks: 1 Thanked 53 Times in 17 Posts	Just FYI. When you get the gun back make sure to check it over good. I had them re-line a C-96 five + years ago. While it functioned fine the attention to detail left something to be desired. One of the guns I had done was bored off center and the breach sides were a little rough. I hope this was due to the fact that they were C-96's. __________________ Suppose you were an idiot.....and suppose you were a member of Congress.....But I repeat myself" ~~ Mark Twain

06-22-2002, 01:52 AM	#3
Hugh RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Southeast Texas Swamp Posts: 2,460 Thanks: 2 Thanked 165 Times in 64 Posts	I had a 30 Mauser C96 rebored to 9mm by Redmonds and they did a great job for $100. <img src="graemlins/r.gif" border="0" alt="[king]" /> __________________ *TRUMP FOR PREZ IN '20!*

06-22-2002, 03:26 PM	#6
Hugh RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Southeast Texas Swamp Posts: 2,460 Thanks: 2 Thanked 165 Times in 64 Posts	Redman's Rifling & Reboring, 189 Nichols Rd, Omak, WA 98841, ph: 509-826-5512. Broomhandle Mauser bbls rebored to 9mm= $90; relined to 7.63 Mauser=$100 Call or write them for a price list. Other bbl reliners from GUN LIST, I do not have 1st hand experience with their work: Beinke & Beinke, 4520 Anderson, Klamath Falls, OR 97603, ph. 541-882-3371. Craig Rittenhouse,104 Valley Rd., Tamaqua, PA 18252, SASE or ph. 570-277-0381 <img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" /> __________________ *TRUMP FOR PREZ IN '20!*

07-01-2002, 09:41 PM	#11
Herb User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Utah, in the land of the Sleeping Rainbow Posts: 1,457 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Found these for you guys, all of them advertise as doing barrel work of some type, including sleeving. http://www.m-s-co.com/sso/whereto.html http://www.precisiongunstocks.com/pgw_other.html http://www.piscogunsmithing.com/services.html http://pub109.ezboard.com/fparallaxs...rmsforumsfrm54 http://www.shotgunnews.com/gunad/adi...g?nclass=S5540 Whew, hope I got them right. Good luck! __________________ Utah, where gun control means a steady trigger pull

06-22-2002, 05:16 AM	#4
Jack Owens User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Porterville, California Posts: 27 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Along with checking The Gun Rack, I wrote to Redman's Rifling & Reboring about putting a sleeve in my artillery, but I was told they don't work on Lugar artilleries. So as of this date I know of no one else who does that specific job.

06-22-2002, 10:43 AM	#5
Karl Lifer - Twice Over Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Savannah Posts: 514 Thanks: 0 Thanked 239 Times in 111 Posts	Tell me more - I'm interested in getting a barrel sleeved. What is contact info for Redmonds/Redman's? What are other reputable shops for this work? How long does it take? Do they have to remove the barrel from the receiver? KFS

07-01-2002, 02:29 PM	#7
Karl Lifer - Twice Over Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Savannah Posts: 514 Thanks: 0 Thanked 239 Times in 111 Posts	FYI, I finally got in touch with Redman's Rifling and Reboring. They do not sleeve 9mm Lugers but they can rebore a 7.65 Luger to 9mm. I would appreciate recommendations anyone has for a good shop for having a 9mm Luger sleeved. KFS

07-01-2002, 06:41 PM	#8
Doubs User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Byron, Georgia Posts: 1,670 Thanks: 769 Thanked 1,614 Times in 525 Posts	A few years back I contacted Redmonds about reboring/chambering a 7.63 C-96 barrel to 9mm. I was advised that he would not use a chamber sleeve to headspace the Luger cartridge. He suggested seating the bullet out to contact the rifling in order to establish the correct headspacing. I was not satisfied with the results. The work by Redmond's was competent enough but trying to get correct headspacing by seating the bullets out just didn't work. I sold the pistol. At a later date I requested that Redmond's rechamber and rebore another C-96 to 9mm but with a chamber bushing for headspacing. I was flatly refused. If I were to have another C-96 done by Redmonds, it would be in the original 7.63 chambering. After my experience with the 9mm, I wouldn't do it again unless there was a chamber bushing. That's my experience and it's neither a condemnation of, nor endorsement for Redmonds. The work was competent except that without the chamber bushing, consistently headspacing the cartridges proved to be impossible.

07-01-2002, 08:23 PM	#9
Karl Lifer - Twice Over Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Savannah Posts: 514 Thanks: 0 Thanked 239 Times in 111 Posts	Thanks Doubs, I have continued to search for a shop that will sleeve a Luger. Beinke & Beinke do not sleeve lugers nor does Craig Ritterhouse listed above. I was referred to Mentor Arms Company as a shop that specializes in lugers but their phone has been disconnected. If there is a reputable shop (or two) that sleeves lugers I suggest that their contact information be included in the links section of the old web site for future reference. There must be a market for sleeving Luger barrels, especially with the inflated prices of recent years. In my experience there are lots of well-preserved lugers out there with the exception of a pitted bore. KFS

07-01-2002, 08:36 PM	#10
Roadkill User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 1,632 Thanks: 1 Thanked 28 Times in 17 Posts	Gentlemen, once again I'll reveal my ignorance regarding Lugers, but what the hell. Instead of sleeving & relining a Luger, would it be possible to rebore it and then increase the bullet size? Increase bore diameter enough to remove bad areas, then slug bore, get sized bullets, adjust chamber then reload with a stretched case? Please don't laugh too hard. RK

07-01-2002, 11:54 PM	#12
unspellable User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Iowa Posts: 768 Thanks: 0 Thanked 18 Times in 10 Posts	In the beginning there was the 7.65 Borchardt cartridge. Loaded up for the 7.63 Mauser with no significant change of diminsion. Then shortend to form the 7.65 mm Parabellum. DWM's first attempt at a 9 mm Luger cartridge was the 7.65 mm Parabellum necked up to 9 mm. This resulted in a bottle necked case with a shoulder either to too small for reliable headspacing or just too small to bother with. The next attempt was a taperd case and the 9 mm Parabellum was born. My point is that if you bore out a 7.65 Parabellum or a 7.63 Mauser chamber, there will be an area where the should was that will be larger in diameter than a 9 mm chamber, resulting in an odd shaped chamber with a "ring bulge" in it. The shoulder on the bottle necked cartridges is larger in diameter than the corresponding point on the 9 mm Parabellum case. Seems to me that to get a proper chamber you would be forced to sleeve it. unspellable

07-02-2002, 12:04 AM	#13
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 6,987 Thanks: 1,067 Thanked 5,090 Times in 1,675 Posts	NoÃ?Â«l, That is some neat information on DWM's first attempt at a 9mm cartridge that resulted in a slightly bottlenecked cartridge. Where did you find that info? I had always assumed that the 9mm Parabellum evolved directly from the 7.65mm. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

07-02-2002, 03:44 PM	#14
Karl Lifer - Twice Over Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Savannah Posts: 514 Thanks: 0 Thanked 239 Times in 111 Posts	Unspellable, Thanks for the information. Perhaps this difference in chamber shape has something to do with Doubs' headspace difficulties with the rebored C96. Still, Redmonds must do a lot of these reborings and one would think that if there were lots of dissatisfied customers they would change their practices accordingly. What are the potential consequences of the slightly different chamber shape? It would be interesting to hear from others who have had a 7.63/7.65 to 9mm rebore. How does the fired brass compare with that of a normal 9mm? KFS

07-03-2002, 12:44 AM	#15
unspellable User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Iowa Posts: 768 Thanks: 0 Thanked 18 Times in 10 Posts	Ron, I can't say where I first learned about the evolution of the 9 mm Parabellum cartridge but the first reference that falls to hand is The Luger Book by John Walter, 1986 edition, Entry A39 Ammunition Register, part ix. There it lists DWM case 480 bottle necked, 480A bottle necked, 480B straight, and 480C tapered, the last becoming the 9mm Parabellum we all know and love. If a 9 mm Parabellum cartridge were to be fired in a chamber bored out from 7.65 mm Parabellum I would expect the fired case to have blown out to a slight shoulder like 480 or 480A. If it were fired in a chamber bored out from 7.63 Mauser I would expect the mouth to expand to an oversized diminsion and take very few resizings before cracking at the neck. This wouldn't matter too much for throw away cases, but it wouldn't contribute anything to accuracy. You all realize of course that DWM made a few Lugers chambered in the bottle necked 9 mm cartridge. It's the one they took to England when they tried to sell it to the Brits. All you have to do is find one in an attic someplace. But don't get too excited yet, it would have been easy for the tool room to rebarrel them. unspellable

07-04-2002, 01:08 AM	#16
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,890 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,282 Times in 424 Posts	Does Gale Morgan do barrel sleeving? --Dwight

07-09-2002, 12:37 PM	#17
Karl Lifer - Twice Over Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Savannah Posts: 514 Thanks: 0 Thanked 239 Times in 111 Posts	Jack, Did the barrel come back from the Gun Rack yet? When I spoke to Gun Rack on the phone they said that turnaround time was about two weeks. I'm about to send them a barrel/receiver as well because they seem to be the only place I can find that will sleeve a Luger to 9mm. It would be nice to hear from a satisfied customer before I take the plunge. [img]frown.gif[/img]

07-09-2002, 02:46 PM	#18
Jack Owens User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Porterville, California Posts: 27 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Dear Karl, No news as of this date. I'll post a preliminary evaluation of the job as soon as I get the barrel back and a shooting evaluation later. Regards, Jack

07-10-2002, 10:00 AM	#19
geoda New User Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Plant City, Fl Posts: 4 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I am the proud owner of a C96 that the gun rack relined,shoots great,great workmanship.I have nothing but praise for them

07-23-2002, 07:06 PM	#20
Jack Owens User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Porterville, California Posts: 27 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Dear Friends, Earlier I told of sending an artillery barrel off to the Gun Rack for the insertion of a sleeve. For those who may have been waiting for some news regarding the result, I sent it off 6/21/02 and have heard nothing since. Today I'm sending a followup letter of inquiry. Stay tuned. Regards, Jack