commercial or military

vf1000ride · 05-10-2003, 09:53 PM

What exactly is the determining factor between the commercial and military versions?

Edward Tinker · 05-10-2003, 10:08 PM

There are lots of factors in differences between the two.

I'll list a couple, then let others do the same.

1. Commercial (comm) numbering is more "hidden", than military numbering.

2. comm numbering is consecutive, it is on-going. Weapon 23567, 13,000 more guns it is 36,567, while military goes up to 10,000 then the next is 1a, up to 9999a, then 10,000a and then b, etc.

3. Military versions were made for a specific country, lets say Germany, while comm are for sale to whomever. (There are also contract Lugers).

thatÃ¢??s a start...

Dwight Gruber · 05-11-2003, 12:50 AM

Proof marking.

Commercial Lugers usually have a Crown-over-N proof, sometimes Crown/U (Mauser Oberndorf); early guns may have Crown/B Crown/U Crown/G proofs, or no proofs.

Military Lugers have a much more complicated set of acceptance and proofing stamps, involving various combinations of Crowns-over-letters, stylized eagles over letters or numbers, stylized eagles over swastikas, Crown-over-M, to name just a few.

Commercial proofs are -usually- found on the left side of the receivers, left side of the breechblock, and under the barrel. Military proofs are -usually- found on the right side of the receiver, right side of the barrel, and left side of the breechblock. There are many variations on both of these placement styles, particularly on military guns.

--Dwight

vf1000ride · 05-11-2003, 10:24 PM

Ah, I'm gonna have to try and draw some of the stamping on my gun and get your opinions on what they all mean. I read though the tech info section and many of the symbols on my gun don't show in the listing.

Dwight Gruber · 05-11-2003, 11:51 PM

Photographs are good...

--Dwight

John Sabato · 05-12-2003, 10:33 AM

Yep, they are the next best thing to being there (after having Dwight be there and have him describe everything he sees in remarkable detail...always good reporting Dwight!)

Yes please post photographs if you can... you can even scan your gun on a flatbed scanner and post the images which are remarkably photolike quality simply by placing the gun on the glass and covering it with a clean white cloth while scanning.

vf1000ride · 05-12-2003, 06:57 PM

I'm having trouble with getting the scanner to make good reproductions. Here is what I can come up with so far.

Larger images:
http://mywebpages.comcast.net/vf1000ride/luger3.jpg
http://mywebpages.comcast.net/vf1000ride/luger4.jpg
http://mywebpages.comcast.net/vf1000ride/Untitled3.jpg

last photo is of the right side of the slide. I'll try to get a better view of the left side.

Dwight Gruber · 05-12-2003, 10:07 PM

Your Luger has a -very- interesting story to tell. Your pictures are tantalizing, in that some information can be determined, and some are just obscure enough for further question.

The acceptance marks and proofs on the right receiver are dim, but appear to be the proper marks for either a 1921 DWM military or police Luger, or a Simson rework of a Luger of that year. That this was a police pistol can be confirmed by the hole drilled in the shelf above the sear bar where a sear safety (a Weimar/early 3rd Reich Police Luger characteristic) was once attached.

I will speculate that the lettering on the right receiver is an importer's stamp, for a company based in New Jersey.

The grips are commonly called Vopo, for Volkspolezei, the East German police. East German Luger reworks were usually given these grips. Other characteristics point to this pistol being an East German rework, not the least being the WWII Mauser S/42 toggle. The sideplate has also been replaced; Lugers with a sear safety have the top of the side plate cut away for the safety mechanism.

Still tantalizing are the markings on the left side of the gun--frame, receiver, and breechblock--unidentifiable in the photograph. It will be useful to see any and all markings on the barrel.

Also, there should be letters and numbers under the right receiver marks, a photo with more original contrast--i.e., more contrasty lighting, perhaps from a very oblique angle--will make them easier to detect.

It will be interesting to see a closeup of the mark on the loading tool. The magazine appears to be a third-party aftermarket piece.

That's all I can tell you for now.

--Dwight

John Sabato · 05-13-2003, 10:21 AM

Here is an enhanced photo of the importers stamp that has increased contrast...it has been greyscaled and the lower half is the negative image which often reveals more than the normal view.

I recognize the importer's stamp to be:

E.C.C.S.A
Pennsauken N.J.

vf1000ride · 05-13-2003, 05:46 PM

Alrighty, scaned these ones in B&W and got the contrast better. Hope this helps. There are two holes in the shelf, one aft by the saftey lever and a second hidden under the sideplate. The double 8 on the left side is duplicated under the takedown lever. The eagles on the left side seam to have been mauled with a punch at some point. The barrel #'s don't match the rest of the gun. I couldn't coax a good picture of the markings out of my scanner. The clip it came with was an older blued unit but it was cracked from the feed lip almost half way to the bottom. It didn't match the gun and I got this to shoot it so I traded it for two of the stainless ones in the picture. The loading tool is from Gun Parts. It has "SA" inside of a box. The chamber loaded writing is in german as is the safety markings. Hope all this helps.
http://mywebpages.comcast.net/vf1000ride/left1.jpg
http://mywebpages.comcast.net/vf1000ride/right1.jpg
http://mywebpages.comcast.net/vf1000ride/front.jpg

Dwight Gruber · 05-14-2003, 03:07 AM

The right receiver stampings are very weak, and still hard to see. Check with a fairly powerful magnifier, the two dovelike stamps should have WaA4 under them, and the rightmost mark should have AYA4 under it.

The left receiver is truly enigmatic. A crucial part of the gun's history is hidden behind the obliteration. It looks like there is an eagle with some kind of encircled figure, and...someting else. Costanzo shows some possible markings here, but I couldn't find any photos in either Still or Jones which appear close.

It looks like a v suffix was added during a rework (probably East German). As far as the 88s are concerned, and the odd X looking mark on the right side of the gun, I'm running to the end of my string, some real Police Luger expert will need to weigh in.

Are there any marks besides the serial number on the barrel?

The SA-in-a-box is the Finnnish military property mark (SA = Suomi Armeija).

The magazine you got with the gun--what material is the base made of, and what (if any) markings are there on it?

--Dwight

vf1000ride · 05-14-2003, 06:37 AM

The barrel has the serial #5687 witha cursive "a 82" between it and the reciever. the top of the barrel at about the 2 o'clock from behind, has an extremly small eagle. If you look at the proof marks on page 3, #33 second from the right. That is the closest picture I can tell but I don't think it is exactly the same. I took the strongest light and magnifier to the markings on the right side. If it should have the extra numbers, they are gone at this point. There is an ever so faint trace of something under the far right figure but even knowing what it should be you couldn't make it out. Your gonna yell at me for the what I did with the original magazine. If I remember correctly it was an aluminum base with the serial stamped into it. I don't remember if it had any other marking and it is long gone. I have had the gun for close to 5 years now and my curiosity about it's history has gotten the better of me. Thanks for all the great help so far.

Brew_Ha_Ha · 05-22-2003, 11:36 PM

My Luger has that same Importer's mark. A 1914 Commercial Army Luger, as told by forums members. Also captured by the East Germans. I am still looking to give it some proper grips.

vf1000ride · 06-03-2003, 07:26 PM

Sorry for the absence. Finally got some better photo's of the LH side and of the barrel. Thanks for any help you guys can give. The history of this gun is really interesting to me.
http://mywebpages.comcast.net/vf1000ride/lugerlh.JPG
http://mywebpages.comcast.net/vf1000ride/lugersear.JPG
http://mywebpages.comcast.net/vf1000ride/barrel3.JPG

05-10-2003, 09:53 PM	#1
vf1000ride User Join Date: May 2003 Location: columbus, Oh Posts: 12 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	commercial or military What exactly is the determining factor between the commercial and military versions?

05-10-2003, 10:08 PM	#2
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,912 Thanks: 1,989 Thanked 4,502 Times in 2,077 Posts	There are lots of factors in differences between the two. I'll list a couple, then let others do the same. 1. Commercial (comm) numbering is more "hidden", than military numbering. 2. comm numbering is consecutive, it is on-going. Weapon 23567, 13,000 more guns it is 36,567, while military goes up to 10,000 then the next is 1a, up to 9999a, then 10,000a and then b, etc. 3. Military versions were made for a specific country, lets say Germany, while comm are for sale to whomever. (There are also contract Lugers). thatÃ¢??s a start... __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

05-12-2003, 10:33 AM	#6
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,150 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	Yep, they are the next best thing to being there (after having Dwight be there and have him describe everything he sees in remarkable detail...always good reporting Dwight!) Yes please post photographs if you can... you can even scan your gun on a flatbed scanner and post the images which are remarkably photolike quality simply by placing the gun on the glass and covering it with a clean white cloth while scanning. __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

05-13-2003, 10:21 AM	#9
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,150 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	Here is an enhanced photo of the importers stamp that has increased contrast...it has been greyscaled and the lower half is the negative image which often reveals more than the normal view. I recognize the importer's stamp to be: E.C.C.S.A Pennsauken N.J. __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

05-22-2003, 11:36 PM	#13
Brew_Ha_Ha User Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: NC Posts: 66 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	My Luger has that same Importer's mark. A 1914 Commercial Army Luger, as told by forums members. Also captured by the East Germans. I am still looking to give it some proper grips. __________________ Honesty is the best policy, but insanity is a better defense.

05-11-2003, 12:50 AM	#3
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,890 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,282 Times in 424 Posts	Proof marking. Commercial Lugers usually have a Crown-over-N proof, sometimes Crown/U (Mauser Oberndorf); early guns may have Crown/B Crown/U Crown/G proofs, or no proofs. Military Lugers have a much more complicated set of acceptance and proofing stamps, involving various combinations of Crowns-over-letters, stylized eagles over letters or numbers, stylized eagles over swastikas, Crown-over-M, to name just a few. Commercial proofs are -usually- found on the left side of the receivers, left side of the breechblock, and under the barrel. Military proofs are -usually- found on the right side of the receiver, right side of the barrel, and left side of the breechblock. There are many variations on both of these placement styles, particularly on military guns. --Dwight

05-11-2003, 10:24 PM	#4
vf1000ride User Join Date: May 2003 Location: columbus, Oh Posts: 12 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Ah, I'm gonna have to try and draw some of the stamping on my gun and get your opinions on what they all mean. I read though the tech info section and many of the symbols on my gun don't show in the listing.

05-11-2003, 11:51 PM	#5
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,890 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,282 Times in 424 Posts	Photographs are good... --Dwight

05-12-2003, 06:57 PM	#7
vf1000ride User Join Date: May 2003 Location: columbus, Oh Posts: 12 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I'm having trouble with getting the scanner to make good reproductions. Here is what I can come up with so far. Larger images: http://mywebpages.comcast.net/vf1000ride/luger3.jpg http://mywebpages.comcast.net/vf1000ride/luger4.jpg http://mywebpages.comcast.net/vf1000ride/Untitled3.jpg last photo is of the right side of the slide. I'll try to get a better view of the left side.

05-12-2003, 10:07 PM	#8
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,890 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,282 Times in 424 Posts	Your Luger has a -very- interesting story to tell. Your pictures are tantalizing, in that some information can be determined, and some are just obscure enough for further question. The acceptance marks and proofs on the right receiver are dim, but appear to be the proper marks for either a 1921 DWM military or police Luger, or a Simson rework of a Luger of that year. That this was a police pistol can be confirmed by the hole drilled in the shelf above the sear bar where a sear safety (a Weimar/early 3rd Reich Police Luger characteristic) was once attached. I will speculate that the lettering on the right receiver is an importer's stamp, for a company based in New Jersey. The grips are commonly called Vopo, for Volkspolezei, the East German police. East German Luger reworks were usually given these grips. Other characteristics point to this pistol being an East German rework, not the least being the WWII Mauser S/42 toggle. The sideplate has also been replaced; Lugers with a sear safety have the top of the side plate cut away for the safety mechanism. Still tantalizing are the markings on the left side of the gun--frame, receiver, and breechblock--unidentifiable in the photograph. It will be useful to see any and all markings on the barrel. Also, there should be letters and numbers under the right receiver marks, a photo with more original contrast--i.e., more contrasty lighting, perhaps from a very oblique angle--will make them easier to detect. It will be interesting to see a closeup of the mark on the loading tool. The magazine appears to be a third-party aftermarket piece. That's all I can tell you for now. --Dwight

05-13-2003, 05:46 PM	#10
vf1000ride User Join Date: May 2003 Location: columbus, Oh Posts: 12 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Alrighty, scaned these ones in B&W and got the contrast better. Hope this helps. There are two holes in the shelf, one aft by the saftey lever and a second hidden under the sideplate. The double 8 on the left side is duplicated under the takedown lever. The eagles on the left side seam to have been mauled with a punch at some point. The barrel #'s don't match the rest of the gun. I couldn't coax a good picture of the markings out of my scanner. The clip it came with was an older blued unit but it was cracked from the feed lip almost half way to the bottom. It didn't match the gun and I got this to shoot it so I traded it for two of the stainless ones in the picture. The loading tool is from Gun Parts. It has "SA" inside of a box. The chamber loaded writing is in german as is the safety markings. Hope all this helps. http://mywebpages.comcast.net/vf1000ride/left1.jpg http://mywebpages.comcast.net/vf1000ride/right1.jpg http://mywebpages.comcast.net/vf1000ride/front.jpg

05-14-2003, 03:07 AM	#11
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,890 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,282 Times in 424 Posts	The right receiver stampings are very weak, and still hard to see. Check with a fairly powerful magnifier, the two dovelike stamps should have WaA4 under them, and the rightmost mark should have AYA4 under it. The left receiver is truly enigmatic. A crucial part of the gun's history is hidden behind the obliteration. It looks like there is an eagle with some kind of encircled figure, and...someting else. Costanzo shows some possible markings here, but I couldn't find any photos in either Still or Jones which appear close. It looks like a v suffix was added during a rework (probably East German). As far as the 88s are concerned, and the odd X looking mark on the right side of the gun, I'm running to the end of my string, some real Police Luger expert will need to weigh in. Are there any marks besides the serial number on the barrel? The SA-in-a-box is the Finnnish military property mark (SA = Suomi Armeija). The magazine you got with the gun--what material is the base made of, and what (if any) markings are there on it? --Dwight

05-14-2003, 06:37 AM	#12
vf1000ride User Join Date: May 2003 Location: columbus, Oh Posts: 12 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	The barrel has the serial #5687 witha cursive "a 82" between it and the reciever. the top of the barrel at about the 2 o'clock from behind, has an extremly small eagle. If you look at the proof marks on page 3, #33 second from the right. That is the closest picture I can tell but I don't think it is exactly the same. I took the strongest light and magnifier to the markings on the right side. If it should have the extra numbers, they are gone at this point. There is an ever so faint trace of something under the far right figure but even knowing what it should be you couldn't make it out. Your gonna yell at me for the what I did with the original magazine. If I remember correctly it was an aluminum base with the serial stamped into it. I don't remember if it had any other marking and it is long gone. I have had the gun for close to 5 years now and my curiosity about it's history has gotten the better of me. Thanks for all the great help so far.

06-03-2003, 07:26 PM	#14
vf1000ride User Join Date: May 2003 Location: columbus, Oh Posts: 12 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Sorry for the absence. Finally got some better photo's of the LH side and of the barrel. Thanks for any help you guys can give. The history of this gun is really interesting to me. http://mywebpages.comcast.net/vf1000ride/lugerlh.JPG http://mywebpages.comcast.net/vf1000ride/lugersear.JPG http://mywebpages.comcast.net/vf1000ride/barrel3.JPG