Post WW1 DWM Long Frame Production

[CptCurl]

Ron Wood has given us an excellent "Early Frame Tutorial" which appears as a sticky post in the "Early Lugers (1900-1906)" forum.

http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthre...8975#post28975

Ron specifically disavows discussion of 1920 era Lugers:

Originally Posted by Ron Wood

* * *

Here are Type categorizations of these transition steps that I have made into a little guide. These are my observations and I am sure this list may not be totally comprehensive and that exceptions do exist (all bets are off on 1920 era Lugers), but it is by and large representative. I welcome any recommended corrections, changes or comments.

First, let me thank Ron for his excellent summary of frame evolution. It's helpful to me and to everybody else interested in these earlier pistols.

With this thread I would like to open a discussion of frame types found on post-WW1 DWM commercial Lugers. Far and away, most of them have the short "Type V" frame that came to be the prevailing standard. But not all of them have the short frame!

I have what I think is a fascinating 1920 era DWM commercial Swiss Luger. For reference, I did a photo spread and discussion of it here:

http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthread.php?t=39776

Please refer to that earlier thread for full photo documentation and a list of features. I'll not repeat those here.

As you can see, this pistol inarguably was made after WW1 (upright C/N proof; s/n 2652i). Yet it is built on a Type III long frame.







Was this frame left over from earlier long frame production? I don't think so, and here's why. The frame is stamped with the "Circle N". According to Gortz & Sturgess this would indicate 1917 or later production. See Gortz & Sturgess Vol. I, page 575, Figure 9-97.





I believe that DWM Tooled up another run of long frames after WW1, probably to please Swiss sensibilities. (Perhaps for other markets too?)

Of course, tooling up for new long frame pistols would require tooling up to make matching long receivers and matching barrels with long thread shanks. Quite a lot of trouble to sell a few commercial pistols to the Swiss market!

While we are talking about it, please take note that the barrel on my pistol measures 100mm exactly. (Please see my correction to this in Post #5, below.)
That's an aberration from the typical, and legally mandated, 98mm and 95mm barrels normally found on the 1920 series pistols.

On the earlier thread that I posted, user "gunnertwo" posted photos of another post WW1 Swiss 1906 pattern that he owns. It also appears to have a long frame. G2, would you confirm whether it is indeed a long frame; and if so, please tell us what stamp appears in the forward frame well. Also, what is the barrel length of your pistol?

Anybody else who has a post-WW1 DWM with a long frame, please join in by posting photos and information about what you have. Maybe we can find some patterns.

Thanks,
Curl

[CptCurl]

While I am wanting to discuss the specific question of long frame production post-WW1, there is another interesting aspect of this pistol I'll bring up.

The pistol is embellished with the Swiss "Cross in Sunburst" over its receiver.





I find this very curious because in 1907 the Army had specified that DWM contract pistols should be embellished with the "Cross in Shield" device. See Gortz & Sturgess, Vol. II, pages 645-646.

Of course, this applied only to the military contracts, but you would think it reflected Swiss sensibilities generally.

Why did DWM revert to the earlier "Cross in Sunburst" device?

So many questions! But please don't be diverted from the original discussion of frame length.

Curl

[Lugerdoc]

Since the Swiss probably requested these lugers to have a grip safety, like their privious military contract lugers. DWM took the easiest route to meeting that requirement: use the left over long frames that they had in stock, along with left-over Swiss military long receivers. TH

[Dwight Gruber]

Originally Posted by CptCurl

...Was this frame left over from earlier long frame production? I don't think so, and here's why...

...While we are talking about it, please take note that the barrel on my pistol measures 100mm exactly. That's an aberration from the typical, and legally mandated, 98mm and 95mm barrels normally found on the 1920 series pistols...

A better determiner of pre-war vs. post-war frame production is examination of the interior of the back of the frame. In 1914 DWM strengthened the rear frame surface, coincident with the introduction of the LP08. This involved removing less material around the breechblock striking abutment. All DWM frames manufactured after this time, whether military or otherwise, have the strengthened abutment.

How are you measuring your barrel length? The most accurate way is to measure the distance between the muzzle and the breech face. A commonly mistaken method is to insert a rod into the barrel until it reaches the breechblock, and then measure the length of insertion. This method includes the recess of the breech face, and the measurement will be too long. My own pistol mate to yours, sn 2648i, has a barrel length of 100.45mm measured this way; its actual muzzle-to-breechface length is 98.31mm.

If you are not already familiar with it, see this discussion http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthre...ghlight=suffix.

Originally Posted by CptCurl

...The pistol is embellished with the Swiss "Cross in Sunburst" over its receiver. I find this very curious because in 1907 the Army had specified that DWM contract pistols should be embellished with the "Cross in Shield" device...Of course, this applied only to the military contracts, but you would think it reflected Swiss sensibilities generally.

Why did DWM revert to the earlier "Cross in Sunburst" device?...l

The Swiss military contract and DWM commercial production were independent of each other. I don't think you can say that commercial production "reverted" to the Swiss receiver cross; rather, they simply didn't make a change. SPECULATION: that DWM found the Swiss cross more useful as a marketing device.

--Dwight

[CptCurl]

Dwight,

That's a great idea to check whether the frame is reinforced. So I dug it out of the safe and pulled it apart to check.

~It's reinforced.~

So I guess that means the frame is later than 1914.



As for the barrel length, I stand corrected. I had done what you suggested. I put a rod down the barrel to get the measurement. Today I measured from the breach face. It's 98mm. To double check, I measured a 1940 Mauser military Luger. The military gun measures 100mm.

Finally, the Cross in Sunburst is bound to be for consumer appeal. Still, you have to wonder why it wasn't the Cross in Shield. Another example is my 1902 Carbine. It has the Cross in Sunburst also.

As for this thread, we are back to the core issue - post WW1 long frames. Have you checked your own #2641i to see if it is reinforced? Everybody else, please chime in with post WW1 long frame pistols.

All interesting! Thanks.

Curl

[Dwight Gruber]

Post-war long frames:

sn 2648i Swiss
sn 2649i Swiss
sn 2961i Swiss
sn 3082i Swiss (Abercrombit & Fitch 9mm)
sn 3191i Swiss (Abercrombie & Fitch 7,65mm)
sn 5259n Swiss

All reinforced.

--Dwight

[Hardleyever]

Another post war long frame: 2862i, Properly c/N proofed including the 150m/m barrel. Barrel/receiver witness mark appears to be original. Germany marked in very small letters at the extreme left rear of the frame. The frame is reinforced. 95% condition.

Regard....Harley

[Dwight Gruber]

Add "'20 Carbine" sn 42. This carbine is based on a reinforced long frame pistol of unknowable origin. Upright c/N proofed. The thumb safety is heavily routed in the lower position.

--Dwight

[CptCurl]

Thanks for the participation on this question. I find the data very interesting.

Nobody else has mentioned the inspection stamp within the front receiver well on the pistols that have been brought forward. As I said, mine, 2652i, is stamped with the "Circle N".





Would anybody be willing to take a peek and report how yours are stamped? The discovery of one or more older inspection stamp(s) would add some spice to our discussion.

Other members, please join in with your post WW1 long frame DWM Lugers.

Curl

[Hardleyever]

2862i has a circle N. I hope this helps....harley

[Chichaco98]

Can anyone post images of the breechblock striking abutment of both an unreinforced and reinforced frame for visual comparison?

This is new to me and very interesting.

[CptCurl]

Originally Posted by Chichaco98

Can anyone post images of the breechblock striking abutment of both an unreinforced and reinforced frame for visual comparison?

This is new to me and very interesting.

I can help with that. Please excuse the delay, as I have been away from my computer mostly since late last week.

The first photograph, below, is of the rear wall of a DWM M1906 s/n 47109. This pistol was manufactured before the change in proofing of 1912, so still retains the "BUG" proofs. It has the un-reinforced striking abutment.





Notice that there is a "shelf" or undercut below the rear frame details that articulate with the rear of the toggle.

If you are interested to see detailed photography of this Luger, you can click this link: http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthread.php?t=26597



The next photograph is from my post #5, above showing a reinforced rear frame.





There is no "shelf" or undercut below the mill details as seen on the un-reinforced rear frame. There's more "meat", in the rear wall of the reinforced frame, as the frame has been thickened in its rear wall.

I hope this tidbit is helpful.

Curl

[Chichaco98]

Thank you CptCurl. I am continuously impressed by the encyclopedic knowledge that is this forum.

[Ron Wood]

Originally Posted by CptCurl

I can help with that. Please excuse the delay, as I have been away from my computer mostly since late last week....
...I hope this tidbit is helpful.

Curl

Those are great photos Roscoe. Folks should grab them for their reference library.
Ron

[CptCurl]

There’s some sparse, but interesting data here.

The root of my inquiry is the source for post-WW1 long Luger frames. My curiosity wants to know whether DWM ran a batch of long frames and a batch of long receivers after the war; for the assumed purpose of stimulating commercial sales.

Of course, my long frame post-war 1906 (in the first post, above) was targeted to the Swiss market, given its Cross in Sunburst. I think the Swiss had a preference for the 1906 pattern, and they seemed to have a preference for the long frame.

The military pattern (alphabet) serial number, 2652i implies a date after mid-1921.
The upright "Crown over N" proof mark came into use after WW1.
The “Circle N” inspector’s mark in the forward frame well implies a date of 1917 or later.
The reinforced rear frame wall implies a date of 1914 or later.

The “Circle N” inspector’s mark and the reinforced rear frame wall are attributes of the frame itself. One might speculate that the frame inspector’s mark could have been applied later, but it defies my logic to think that final frame inspection would occur at a substantially later date than final production of that important part. I believe the inspector's mark would be applied promptly upon completion of the frame.

Therefore, I think my frame was manufactured post-WW1 and was not a leftover long frame. If it had a “Flaming bomb” inspector’s mark and an un-reinforced rear wall, I would think the opposite.

The other serial numbers reported in this thread are entirely consistent as to the reinforced rear frame wall.

Only one has reported on the inspector’s mark, and it is a “Circle N.” More information would be appreciated.

I’m not sure why this question interests me. I suppose I associate the long frame with the pre-P.08 pistols, and it makes me wonder why the long frame would persist following perfection of the P.08 design. Collectors wonder about such nonsense.

Curl

[Proofed]

My 2 cents 7958 O

[CptCurl]

Originally Posted by Proofed

My 2 cents 7958 O

That photo looks like a short frame to me.



Curl

[Proofed]

You are probably right I was not sure. The eyes ain't what they used to be, my bad

[JTD]

Curl, Dwight has a very well done write up on these few pistols in the i block at top of commercial section in a sticky. I have one without a Swiss cross. Just checked, and mine is a short frame. Nice pistol, John

[gunnertwo]

Late to the party. Here's my example:

Swiss Sunburst, serial# 2226 i

The circle N is present but stamped so only the lower right is visible.

The other pics show the reinforcement at the rear of the frame. The pics could be better.

Thanks for the thread.

G2