Frankenstein Luger

[Burnt-Offering]

Hello Luger forum.

I'm new here and I have a long barrelled artillery Luger that I have inherited from my father. It's a bit of a frankenstein. It is not a numbers matching piece, the upper mostly matches itself except for the extractor and the barrel. On top it says DWM dated 1917 with German military stampings. The lower part is numbers matching to itself but was obviously taken from another gun. I figure it was used in the first world war and maybe even saw service in the second world war as well. It seems to have been well used and has a bit of pitting here and there. Certainly not a big money collectors piece or anything.

I can't be completely certain of its history but I assume it found its way into my country (Canada) as a vet bring back. Both my father and his father had a thing for Lugers, and as a child I never really understood why. (Now I understand.) Unfortunately just before I was born this gun was in a fire. So we lost the grips and the two magazines he had were destroyed. (One of them is black metal and I assume an original mag that would have had the wooden end(?), the other had the nylon end, I can tell because there is still a bit of burnt nylon at the bottom.) We're also missing the rear sight, I'm not sure if it was lost in the fire or if my father ever had that in the first place. I know for a fact he never shot it since the fire and for almost 40 years it sat in a box.

Anyway, recently I have decided to see what I can do to get this thing ready for service again. I ordered a new MecGar mag and took the Luger all apart to clean and oil it. I also bought a box of BlazerBrass 9mm 115 gr. Yesterday I took it to the range to test it out. I put 50 rounds through it and was pleasantly surprised at how well it worked. I was a little bit concerned that some of the springs might be too weak, but everything seemed to function pretty well. It never jammed on me once, but several times the action stayed open on me even though there were still rounds in the clip. It seemed to do this less when I maintained a tighter grip on it, but I'm not sure if this is a normal issue or a sign that the small leaf spring for the hold open might be too weak? I did manage to get through a couple full clips without this happening, the MecGar clip ran like a champ.

I don't intend to shoot this gun a lot, even though it's not a big money collectible, it still has a lot of sentimental value to my family. I just wanted to make sure that it could shoot, and I was actually pretty happy with how well it worked.

The reason I'm making this post is because I had a few questions for the Luger experts. This forum seems to be the best place to find answers.

My first question is about this hold open mechanism for the action. It's only supposed to stay open when the magazine is exhausted. It wasn't a big deal for me because I just pulled it back and the next round fed in and fired just fine, but I'm wondering if this is a common issue with these guns and what would be the best was of fixing it?

My second question is about the rear sight. Like I said before, we don't have this part. From what I've gathered looking at pictures the artillery models had a very specific adjustable one. I also noticed that mine has two flat head screws on the back of the toggle lock. This seems to be somewhat unusual and I was wondering if those are to accommodate a different style of rear sight? That would go at the very back of it kinda like the navy Luger?

My third question is about storing it. What I've been doing is loading a snap cap into it, pulling the trigger to uncock it, and putting it away like that. I'm not sure if this is the best way or if maybe you guys know of a better way? Obviously I want to avoid dry firing it.

I plan to track down some reproduction grips and was also thinking about getting a replacement spring kit. A replacement rear sight would be nice as well. Some of this stuff is hard to get in Canada, so any recommendations you guys might have on this would be appreciated.

Thanks.

[DonVoigt]

Yes,
it looks like someone removed the "artillery sight " from the barrel and cobbled some kind of receiver sight onto the rear toggle. You can get a replacement original type rear sight, but I have no idea what the non standard rear looked like.

I think you are correct, you have a weak hold open spring.

Firing weapons that have been in a "fire" is usually not a wise idea.

Welcome to the board.

[ithacaartist]

Welcome to the forum, Odin.

I think you lucked out concerning the fire's intensity. Because most of the springs work OK, it would appear that it didn't get hot enough to anneal everything. If it had, none of the springs would spring any more--just bend. You've already tested it successfully, albeit perhaps a bit unwittingly, and I'd say the dangerous part is over. I personally wouldn't worry too much about firing it in the future, since it has passed that test. It should make a good shooter, and its collectible value is already at or near rock bottom.

Check the FAQ for how to properly de-c0ck a Luger!

[sheepherder]

There are a couple members on this forum with artillery sights to sell but be prepared to shell out some hard currency...

I also have an artillery toggle with two tapped holes but mine are side-by-side, not in-line. It must have been a popular addition, whatever it was.

[Rick W.]

That is a fairly interesting Luger to me. Kinda depends on what you want it to be and budget. More original looking or a custom shooter. I understand the feeling for the Luger, tis good to still have the Luger and its memories.

Original rear ladder type sights for the artillery are for sale on occasion, .....pricey. One should observe the little teeth on the side of said sight for missing/worn/abused teeth. These teeth perform a function of elevation. This missing teeth issue can cause the pistol to move in elevation when not wanting that. Some folks improvise in securing said elevation of the sight, but the teeth(small) on the side of these sights are difficult to repair.

Reproduction rear arty sights are out there as well. Lesser cost, but some think they are not as good durability wise sorta speak. Some speak the same of replacement Navy rears, the materials are not as tough. The barrel and toggle of the Luger are tough environments for adjustable mechanical things.

I would suspect that your Luger once featured a custom rear sight, probably adjustable in nature. Probably a one of... type of thing. One could duplicate something along the lines, but have to remember that the rear toggle during operation is a pretty hostile environment for adjustable sights. Custom work from scratch is time consuming, hence pricey unless you can do it yourself.

To release the firing pin of a Luger without the usual shock, lift the toggle up partially and pull the trigger, you will hear the firing pin drop. As you know, full dry firing the Luger is hard on the firing pin's tip from the shock of being unsupported when it hits the end of the breechblock, and sometimes causes the firing pin tip to fracture, and fall off the firing pin body. Your method of using a snap cap fine if the snap cap is in good working order, ie provides the cush to the nose of the firing pin.

The hold open has two parts, spring and body. The hold open assembly engages the button on the side of the empty magazine. The leaf spring is supposed to allow movement of the hold open upwards to engage the breechblock with empty magazine. The other aspect of the spring is to hold the hold open below the run of the breechblock during operation. I would suspect that your spring is bad, what from, I cannot say. Replacement springs are available.........again the originals are the best, some of the reproductions may not have the same robust capability.

There are probably a few pictures of custom rear sights on the forum, the search function is your friend.

There has been some pictures of arty lugers with optics from time to time, red dot as well as scoped; but again custom machine work is a key ingrediant to such mechanical interfaces. Any added custom features add weight/mass to the pistol, have to remember the Luger is a balanced mechanical marvel.

[Edward Tinker]

Welcome to the forum!

Ed

[Burnt-Offering]

Thanks for all your responses. I had a look at the FAQ. I was actually lurking around the forum for a while before, but it wouldn't let me into the FAQ until I made an account.

Knowing that my Dad's Luger had been in a fire, I checked the barrel very carefully to make certain it was still straight and that there was no warping. I wouldn't have put live ammunition through it if I had any doubt at all about the barrel. Going to the range, my only concern was if the springs would be strong enough to do their thing or how it would cycle. It sounds pretty risky to trust a gun that had been in a fire like this, but it's not like I took it to the range from the ash heap.

I'm pretty sure that when the fire happened the gun was contained inside a metal box, so that must have helped protect it from the full intensity of the heat. So the story goes... my parents were newly weds and they were living in a trailer while they were building their first house. My mother was pregnant for me (their first child) and their trailer caught fire before the new house was finished. They pretty much lost everything in the fire, (including an antique violin that had been in the family for a long time.) I remember my mother telling me that the trailer was cheaply made with cardboard walls so it burnt real good. The fire happened at night and they were in bed when it started. Our parents told us they had to rush out literally naked, and Dad said he could hear the ammo going off in the fire. It's an exciting piece of family history associated with this gun.

From my research into the springs, it seems that a lot of the notoriety for jamming issues was caused by a difference in the hotness of 9mm loads. American versus the hotter European and NATO ammo. If I understand correctly, when fitted with fresh springs to the OEM strength, Lugers will function best with the hot loads, and supposedly American standard 9mm wasn't enough to make the gun cycle properly. So on the vet bring backs, Americans outfitted their shooting Lugers to slightly weaker springs so that they would cycle with American 9mm. (?)

I'm starting to wonder if my Dad's Luger was civilian modified post war, on our side of the pond. I wish I could still talk to my Dad, I never even got a chance to ask him where and how he ever got the gun in the first place. I always just took it for granted when he was alive. Him and my Grand Father were really into these things, and now it seems I'm the last gun guy still alive in our family.

Dad's Luger seemed to cycle just fine with cheap domestic ammo, so I'm wondering if it was already retrofitted with lighter springs, or if they were just appropriately weakened in the fire. ( LoL ) -If I went ahead and put in new springs, would it become more picky for hotter ammo? Also, when I bought the bullets, the guy at the gun store offered me bargain steel case ammo. I declined, as I figured brass would be softer on the internals, but I was wondering... do any of you guys ever use steel case 9mm in your Lugers? ( -That's probably a stupid question, but I'm a shameless newb! XD )

Also speaking of springs, I still want to fix this spring for the action hold open. This seems like it should be a pretty simple and easy leaf spring to make, but in my research I have read some bad reviews of replacement springs snapping as they're installed. Can anybody recommend a reputable source for selling replacements?

So I just put in the order for these reproduction grips: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01NAQHK32 It also comes with the little tool, that should make reloading the mag a little easier.

And again about those two flat head screws someone put into the back toggle... Certainly that's not OEM. Do you guys think that looks like something that would have been done on our side of the pond post war? That's what I am starting to suspect. As for Rick W's comment... do I want something original looking or more of a custom shooter? Well I would prefer the original look, but as far as sights go I'll prioritize function over form. If there was an easy back sight that I could use where it was cobbled I would be fine with that. When I took it to the range I didn't test accuracy, I didn't even post a target. I'll do that next time.



Thanks again for all your responses. Here are some more pictures... Looking at the hold open dealy when I dissasembled it immediately following my little range test. A pic of the ammo I used and a pick of my magazines. Cheers.

[Edward Tinker]

I am one of the guys who believe the "hotter" ammo is better is more of a myth than the truth My artillery has been buffed and reblued, but she is a shooter! Has shot almost everything through it without a hitch. Its magazine is a Swiss "P" marked one, so feeds well.

[DonVoigt]

The rear toggle/sight mod was almost certainly done over here, when who knows.

I'd leave the springs alone if it works fine as is.

There is little chance that someone fitted weaker springs, I don't know where they would get them anyway. Weak springs can cause as many problems as too strong ones- and each luger seems to have its own "quirks".

I'm with Ed, this hot ammo/US ammo thing is way over blown, not pun intended. US 9mm ammo is not that much different from European- and loadings from various manufacturers vary by around 100 fps - depending on which and whose load or data one believes.

Steel case ammo is not recommended due to the "obdurating" ring in the the original chambers.
The Germans themselves used steel ammo, and removed this chamber ring about the same time.
Check the stickys for more info.

Buy an original spring from "Lugerdoc" on this forum for replacing your hold open spring. First try bending it to increase the pressure a little to test if that is the problem- it may solve the problem for a while or permanently- just depends.

Keep reading, but take all you read with a couple grains of salt!

[Lugerdoc]

Odin?, In addition to new PO8 HO springs @ $25 (or can install for $25 additional), I have all the missing parts for your original magazines, all luger springs, the mid axle retaining pin (which is missing in your photo) most types of original wood grips or new repro wood or plastic grips. TH PS; Also have new repro or original LPO8 rear sight assys, starting @$250 + S&H.

[Rick W.]

If you do not reload for the 9mmx19, you might consider the Winchester white box ammo sold about everywhere. Most folks do not use steel cased ammo in prized weapons, as case steel is harder than barrel steel. Steel ammo is war ammo, cheap etc etc but works good once. Wear on some of those weapons is a moot point to those that need/use them. I would like to think that the Luger is built to tighter tolerances than some of these other weapons.

Hot ammo is hot ammo. Up from there is submachine ammo. Either will beat the handgun firearm to death fairly shortly. Anyone can shoot hot ammo and have their pistol work fine........for a while. Luger parts are expensive and somewhat elusive at times, not as bad as original automag parts, but the toll is there for replacement parts. Good original parts and good reproduction parts are available, but so are some of the other reproduction parts. I have not bought parts for long time, as had a stash, but recently tried some reproduction holdopen parts a friend gave me, I could bend them like a pretzel.

You might be able to bend the oem hold open spring some for more downward pressure. Tis tempered, or at least at one time, and may snap, so there is some risk to that part if that matters at this time. Take your time, and don't have all the fun at once.

Note that the arty barrel has a recess for the rear sight, the barrel and toggle moves quickly in the basic function of a live round being fired, the mechanical recesses attempt to keep the sight assembly in place. The smallish teeth on the side of the sight tend to shear with time in grade of shooting. The little spring loaded push button retainer engages these teeth for elevation adjustment......but the things moving quickly and abruptly take their toll on said smallish teeth and their engagement. I have never heard of anyone repairing these teeth even with microwelding($$$) but I do not get out much anymore. A friend of mine with almost no teeth on his arty's sight uses a mini bungee cord to hold the sight....down; he gets teased a lot, but he can shoot...........very well.

As you probably have noted in viewing the internet, most oem Luger sights are integral to the rear toggle piece. Tis a war weapon, used close up sorta speak; in that regard, sights are a decoration. The arty was in a class of its own, other than the 100/200 navy sight; but those were early times I guess. Adjustable rear custom sights have been used in Europe and over here for a long, long time. Lots of lessons learned in putting a sight on the barrel or the rear toggle. Weight is an issue with a barrel mounted sight or optic as to basic function. There was a guy here on the forum that made a custom basic for the arty barrel interface and used a red dot, he shot coyotes out of his garden with it. He told me that he went thru a lot of cheapo red dots before he found one to hold up and yet allow repetitive firing function.

In the rear toggle of a custom sight, those that simply silver solder the sight housing or sight onto the toggle will probably experience failures due to stresses of the movement(shear). Usually the screwed on ones do not last unless mechanically locked, in my opinion. The more successful custom rear sights have some recess in said toggle to take the brunt(shear) of the movements of the rear toggle. fwiw, some adjustable rear sights oem, just fall apart on the Luger toggle, while others seem to hold up more better. Some of the better choices for sights attempts are no longer built. Some are pictured here on this forum fwiw if so interested.

So if you engage a fellow to build a custom rear housing with sight, the effects of shear and movement of said rear toggle need to be known. If you go with a oem ladder arty sight, keep in mind the teeth if shooting a lot or not.

All of this is purely opinion and a little experience with tearing up(trying) things(failures), followed by successes from knowledge/techniques acquired. Again, just opinion.

If it was my pistol, I would put a new recoil spring in the pistol; just habit with me with a new firearm, but..........as usual.........just opinion. I might check the little leaf springs and coil springs for tension ability and return after stressing.

[rhuff]

Be aware that the grips that you ordered may require anywhere from a little to a lot of "tuning" to get them to fit properly. This problem is very common with aftermarket Luger grips.....plus, also remember that all the parts of the original Lugers were hand fit and most were numbered at the factory before leaving there. Good luck, and welcome.

[Burnt-Offering]

Thanks for the info guys. Especially Rick W, your comment was especially informative. Good to know that the hot ammo thing is a myth.

-I was aware that the handle scales would need some trimming when I ordered them. All the same it was still more than I expected. I regret removing as much material as I did, and I got a bit of a split going in the wood... The left side scale was a pain fitting to the safety mechanism. The job didn't go as well as I wanted it to. If I ordered another set I think I could do a much nicer job knowing what I know now. -But at least these grips will be still usuable for shooting.

After I got them fitting the gun good, I had to trim the outside for ergonomic reasons. Where the thumb wraps around by the safety was sticking out too far. I lost some diamond texture but it was more important to me to be able to hold it comfortably. -Then I gave it a nice dark red stain. I'll include some pictures, having grips makes a big difference for the gun, and despite botching the job a bit they're still quite usable.

Lots of cutting was required and everything was effected. I had to trim to make the safety turn off all the way, bit also a fair ammount of trimming to make the mag release work properly. Even the the magazine face rubs against part of the inner handle that needed to be trimmed away. Lol, even the little Luger tool needed trimming. I went to town on it with a rat tail file before the hole could even connect with the spring button on my MecGar.

Luger doc I am definetly interested in ordering some springs. How does it work to order and do you ship to Canada? I also need that rear sight and I'm interested in the magazine stuff. What is that "mid axle retaining pin" you say I'm missing? Is that for the magazines? I'm thinking to order one fancy wooden bottom and an aluminum one. I might order some better handle scales too so what have you got?

[Lugerdoc]

Sir, I do have all the luger parts requested and do ship to Canada. The mid axle retaining pin goes thru the hole on the top of the rear toggle links, just inboard of the checkering on left side "ear". This pin keeps the axle from drifting out. Also have better fitting (than the Indian made set shown) checkered wood grips @$50 or new Russian or DDR plastic grips @$35. Original checkered wood ggrips starting @$50 chipped under safety lever to $150 exc. Unmarked wood or aluminum mag bottoms @$35 each or 3 for $100. Also have all other mag parts. Please send email for details of price and payment. Thanks, Tom

[Burnt-Offering]

I think I found my mid axle retaining pin
It's just inside the hole on the outside, must be broken since it doesn't sit flush.

I still have to get a new one but it's nice to know there's at least something there.

Here's a pic from the inside with the action locked up. :/

[Burnt-Offering]

Okay guys, I don't know if anyone here is still following this thread, but just in case I thought I'd give you guys a little update on my Luger progress here.

This weekend was a long weekend here in Canada for "Victoria Day." I hit the ramge Saturday and Sunday and put about 350 rounds through the Luger. It's the most action this gun has seen in at least 40 years.

One thing that happened after 200 rounds on Saturday, once home I noticed I lost one of the little screws on the back toggle. These were the add on sight screws that sombody cobbled on to the back of this thing. I guess one of them worked itself loose and was lost. (A bit of a shame, but I'm not too worried about it. I'm sure I can find replacements and it's not like they were OEM.) You guys weren't kidding about the toggle being a violent place for add ons.

Other than that, no real issues with the piece. The hold open mechanism still comes on more than I'd like but I opened it up and tried to bend a bit on the leaf spring as Rick suggested. It seemed to help a bit but I also made a deal with LugerDoc for some new parts, so hopefully soon those will be coming. I also ordered another pistol to shoot from Marstar, being that this Luger is over a hundred years old I don't want to be going to hard on it.

Still after 350 rounds in two days, I feel like I'm getting better at shooting it. Even without the rear sight, I find it's most acurate for me when I shoot intuitively with both eyes open, either one handed or two handed from a kneeling position. The gun also attracts a lot of attention at the range as most gun people in Canada never get to see these guns.

[DavidJayUden]

I believe that the missing screw is referred to as a Blanking plug and a gunsmith will have an assortment of them, commonly used to fill sight or scope base holes no longer needed.
Glad to hear that Lugers work well up in the frozen north country...
dju

[DonVoigt]

Originally Posted by DavidJayUden

I believe that the missing screw is referred to as a Blanking plug and a gunsmith will have an assortment of them, commonly used to fill sight or scope base holes no longer needed.
Glad to hear that Lugers work well up in the frozen north country...
dju

Called many things, filler screw, plug screw, etc; when you find one the correct size and shape, put a drop of loctite on it so it won't work out again. And a drop on the one that is left.

[Rick W.]

Holes in guns can be done a lot of ways. Simplest is the screw in type, either flush or with a shoulder(Brownells). More original looking seems to be a pinged plugged affair or welding.

Rear toggles can be had if you wanted to replace the one that is on the Luger now. Not too sure about trade off in welding/finishing up versus another toggle dollar wise; but the options are out there.

The two screw holes for a custom rear sight on your particular toggle take all the shear forces straight up. Lots of this type come off the toggle. The toggle not only has the backwards force but also another vertical component which is hard on mounted non original sights. Tough environment to be sure, but has been done with irons anyway, most have a shallow recess(or some variation) to take the backward movements, and the screws hold down.

The arty barrel has some advantage in some ways, perhaps with a smallish red dot optic. The movement is back, does not have too much vertical like the toggle. Lots of speed event pistols today have optics with a recess machined to the slide and two screws holding the sight to the slide, ie Romeo1 by SIG. Good red dots cost money due to their reliability touted in difficult environments.

I suspect the stoppage midway thru a mag is due to hold open bounce usually due to inadequate leaf spring tension. If you consider changing the spring, you might read a bit here on the forum before attempting.

[Burnt-Offering]

Hey guys, remember me? Time for another update on my Luger progress. I got some more questions for you guys too, so buckle down and listen up.

Monday I came home from work and my parts order had arrived from the LugerDoc. (Pics below) I immediately set about refurbishing the better of my Dad's old magazines. -As I mentioned before this thing had been in a fire. On the old mag there was still a small remanent of the mag bottom. It was black, and I assumed it was originally a black nylon one like my new MecGar mag. Once I popped the pin out and removed the remanent of the bottom, on closer inspection I realized that it was a charred piece of wood. This magazine originally had a wooden bottom! Anyway when I ordered from LugerDoc I opted for the aluminum bottom because I'm kinda hard on my stuff and I figured the aluminum would hold up better than wood. So anyway it took some doing, but I got the magazine all put together and it seems to function well. I haven't used it with live rounds but it worked fine with snap caps. The mag spring I got was a round MecGar one. I noticed that on my MecGar mag there is a cylindrical spring dealy under the follower, I didn't have that for this mag but it seems to work fine cycling five snap caps without it.

Next I set about putting on the refurbish artillery sight. Now here is where I have some questions for you guys. First off the sight looks good on the gun, but when I look down the sights it is crooked. I'm not sure if it shows in the picture I took, but when I look down the sights the rear sight looks askew. Also there is a little centering screw underneath the adjustable part that raises up. I managed to loose it off before I slipped the sight on the barrel, but how am I supposed to tighten down this thing? I can't reach it with a screw driver, am I suppose to punch out the pin for the top part and take it off in order to tighten down this screw? Would tightening this screw help my rear sight be less crooked?

So anyway the mag and the sight was day one. After that I decided to call it a day. Tuesday after work I tackled the other stuff. The mid axle retaining pin, firing and extractor spring all went fine. The hold open spring was another story...

The new hold open spring was much stiffer than my old one. That's fine, I ordered the new one because my old one was too weak. The hold open engaged too often. So that's good, it took some doing but I managed to get the new spring inserted into the mech and then I got the whole thing installed in the gun. Problem, maybe the new spring is too strong because now the hold open doesn't work. (keep in mind I haven't taken it to the range yet to try with live rounds...) but before when I pulled back the toggle on an empty mag it stayed open like a champ every time. Even with my refurbished mag on monday night. Now with the new hold open spring in, it doesn't seem to push the mech high enough to catch the bolt. A few times I managed to make it work by pushing up on the bottom of the mag and reefing back the toggle really hard with my right hand, but even then it's iffy, and a few times when I had it opened like that it snapped closed with a jerk of the gun. (Once I removed the mag while it was opened, I put a few snap caps in the mag and then as soon as I inserted the loaded mag back in, the action snapped back closed.) Maybe it'll work better with live rounds but I kind of doubt it, and I saw a thread here where some one suffered a broken hold open mech. My gun's not numbers matching but this hold open mech is an original so I really don't want to risk breaking it. Maybe shooting it like this would be too much of a risk. Is there anything you guys could recommend I do to deal with this?