Finnish Military Lugers

Luke · 06-19-2002, 08:38 AM

Does anyone here know of a reference book which describes the Finnish Lugers?

Alternately, if you have one, please describe it or email me directly.

Thanks, Luke

John Sabato · 06-19-2002, 01:51 PM

Hi Luke,

Check the owner's corner photo gallery to your left. I know that Kyrie has a 1923 Finnish Luger on diplay there and there may be other users who also have one there...

[img]smile.gif[/img]

best to you,

Ron Wood · 06-19-2002, 04:27 PM

Hi Luke
The best reference I have found is John Walter's "The Luger Book", originally printed in 1986 and reprinted in 1991. He has a section on Finland that provides the most information on Finnish Lugers that I have found so far. I have one that is a Century Arms import like Kyrie's, and marked in the same manner except that it has the Finnish replacement barrel made by Oy Tikkakoski (I particularly wanted one with the Finn barrel). It is the same length as the early DWM 7.65 barrels, 120mm, but is much "fatter" due to the 9mm caliber. I am looking for a grip or just the brass unit marking disk, found on some of the Finnish Lugers. All of the pictures of these disks for Army unit Lugers that I have seen are for machine-gun companies of rifle battalions. I missed out on a nice one in an auction about a year ago.

Jan C Still · 06-19-2002, 05:13 PM

Luke
Axis Pistols has some information on Finnish Lugers (p308-310) as does Weimar Lugers (p13,29, and 32).
On page 311 of Weimar Lugers there are listed a series of articles in Guns and Ammo, AUTO MAG and the Naval Institute Press by G. C. Stevenson concerning Finnish Lugers. He also completed a Masters Thesis covering extensivr research in Finland on the same subject (cant remember the title).
Jan C. Still

Jan C Still · 06-19-2002, 05:14 PM

Luke
Axis Pistols has some information on Finnish Lugers (p308-310) as does Weimar Lugers (p13,29, and 32).
On page 311 of Weimar Lugers there are listed a series of articles in Guns and Ammo, AUTO MAG and the Naval Institute Press by G. C. Stevenson concerning Finnish Lugers. He also completed a Masters Thesis covering extensivr research in Finland on the same subject (cant remember the title).
Jan C. Still

Roadkill · 06-19-2002, 09:14 PM

Just curious since this Finnish luger came up, how would a Luger operate in extremely cold temperatures? I believe the Lahti had an accelerator to help with extraction in these conditions, the Germans had to strip all oil & lubricants from all weapons due to freezing, added it when they heated up. Seem to me that a Luger would not be a reliable firearm, the toggle action would be more prone to freeze up than a straight rear recoil type. A little frozen moisture could really lock one up in several places.

RK

Jerry Harris · 06-19-2002, 10:52 PM

RK,
Though we don't hear it often, the Luger does have some things going for it on reliability. The toggle lockup is actually pretty simple. If the breech closes, it's locked - no additional parts involved. You can see and reach the breechblock and both toggle links. If the breech doesn't close, you can slap the toggle down and develop a huge closing force in the last part of the motion.

The slide automatics hide their lockup parts inside. The tilt-barrel link and meshing grooves of the 1911, as well as the locking blocks and camming pins of the Beretta and P-38, have inaccessible voids where ice can form out of sight and out of reach.

I don't know beans about actual low-temperature experimental results, but I suppose the Finns got some, and perhaps weren't too disappointed.

Roadkill · 06-20-2002, 11:41 AM

Thank you sir, outstanding info. As to what you were doing on a range in that temperature, well..., I guess there is an opposite to the phrase "only mad dogs & Englishmen go out in the mid day sun"

RK
[img]cool.gif[/img]

Doubs · 06-20-2002, 12:37 PM

A few years back when Century Arms imported the Finnish Lugers, I managed to get one being sold as a "U-Fix-Em". It came minus the magazine and firing pin. Otherwise, it was complete and all major parts matched serially. It had well-worn wood grips and was missing the unit disc. The top of the front sight had been filed down a few thousands of an inch.

The finish was a dull blue, almost like a parkerized finish. It was in 7.65mm, short barrel and the serial number was four numbers and a suffix letter that fell in the proper block of pistols sold to Finland in the mid-1920's. The "SA" in a square frame was stamped on the left forward receiver side. The bore was excellent. It was very accurate and completely reliable.

There was one odd thing about it that I believe was done to improve cold weather reliability. The breech block had a small hole drilled from the bottom into the firing pin chamber. If the original firing pin was of the old type (unfluted), the forward movement of the pin may have been retarted slightly by the air being pushed out of the firing pin hole. Any lubricant on the firing pin would tend to seal the air in even more and the bottom hole was, in my opinion, to allow air to escape and speed the fall of the firing pin. I may be wrong in my assumption and I'd like to hear other opinions about the purpose of the extra hole.

I sold the pistol to a gentleman associated with the "Cruffler's" board and he may still have it.

Roadkill · 06-20-2002, 01:57 PM

Doubs, this could have been a pre fluted firing pin method of allowing gas/pressure from a hot primer to escape prior to firing pin damage.
Tacfoley, no offense intended but I don't know what the difference is between an Englishman and the others. I always thought that Great Britain = England= British = English.

RK

Doubs · 06-20-2002, 03:43 PM

Roadkill, that's certainly a possibility. I wonder if other Finnish Lugers have been so modified?

As to the question of who's British and who's English, the answer is that ALL English are British but not all British are English. e.g., A Scot, a Welshman and an Irishman are all British Subjects by virtue of their countries being part of the "British Empire". However, none are English because they are not from England.

Roadkill · 06-20-2002, 05:54 PM

Thanks for getting me straight. Oh well, the good thing about being from Alabama is folks don't get their feelings hurt when you say something dumb, not as if they expect any better.

RK

Luke · 06-20-2002, 10:06 PM

Thanks for your help and comments.
Luke

Jerry Harris · 06-20-2002, 10:42 PM

Tacfoley,
Thanks for the first-hand cold shooting report, and the fascinating description of graphite powder lubrication before it was a commercial product!

Doubs · 06-20-2002, 10:54 PM

[quote]Originally posted by Roadkill:
<strong>Oh well, the good thing about being from Alabama is folks don't get their feelings hurt when you say something dumb, not as if they expect any better. RK</strong><hr></blockquote>

RK, somehow I doubt that you've ever said anything "dumb". Besides, I learned about the German use of "Reserves" from you! (I also lived in England for six years so I know a little about the English - British thing). [img]smile.gif[/img]

Lugerdoc · 06-21-2002, 09:05 AM

Luke, You may also want to check out Ezell's "Handguns of the World" as he has an excellent chapter on Finnish pistols. The only matching M23 luger that I've owned with the brass unit ID disc, was a mismatched Century import that I "boosted" and sold as such. The matching DWM commerical toggle assy was one that I had in stock and the ID grips came out of John Martz's junk box at a Great Western show.

Johnny Peppers · 06-21-2002, 09:41 AM

The topic of the fluted firing pin comes up ever so often, but is there any documentation that the fluting was done to protect the firing pin from a pierced primer? One of the tests given the .45 Luger was to fire it with a pierced primer. The action was found to be normal after the firing, and this was certainly before the fluted firing pins were introduced. All references that I have seen indicate the fluting was done to allow an escape for buildup between the breechblock and the firing pin. One of Georg Luger's patents was for the fluting of the firing pin in a rifle bolt to prevent the obstruction of grease in the bolt assembly, and this was in 1893.

Roadkill · 06-21-2002, 07:14 PM

Sir,
My last name is Grady, shortened in the 1820s, from the obvious, the family coat of arms is from Ireland,(vulneratus non victus)and my great grandfather lost a leg at the Battle of Atlanta while an infantryman with the 4th Alabama Inf.in 1964.Thanks for your ancestors supporting my ancestors.

RK

Thor · 06-21-2002, 09:32 PM

I am American dude with ancestors that came from Ireland and Germany, that loves Lugers and good people! An American that first and foremost is a Christian! They tell me some of my ancestors were from Cork Ireland and Leipzig Germany! I dont know whether to enjoy Irish Whisky or a Good German Doppel Bock! Heck, I will have both and a good Ale that my friend Terry might like. We are all friends here. I have met some really great people talking Lugers! Man......am I lucky! I only wish I could go shooting Lugers with the Road man and Mr Terry! Wouldnt that be a fun!
<img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" /> <img src="graemlins/c.gif" border="0" alt="[ouch]" />

wterrell · 06-21-2002, 09:38 PM

My ancestry is Scott (McClanahan). My wife is Scott (Stewart, Duncan). We watch you islanders with interest.

06-19-2002, 08:38 AM	#1
Luke User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: NC - USA Posts: 1,239 Thanks: 0 Thanked 18 Times in 6 Posts	Finnish Military Lugers Does anyone here know of a reference book which describes the Finnish Lugers? Alternately, if you have one, please describe it or email me directly. Thanks, Luke __________________ "Peace, if possible; truth, at any cost." . . . Martin Luther

06-19-2002, 01:51 PM	#2
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,150 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	Hi Luke, Check the owner's corner photo gallery to your left. I know that Kyrie has a 1923 Finnish Luger on diplay there and there may be other users who also have one there... [img]smile.gif[/img] best to you, __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

06-19-2002, 04:27 PM	#3
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 6,986 Thanks: 1,065 Thanked 5,088 Times in 1,674 Posts	Hi Luke The best reference I have found is John Walter's "The Luger Book", originally printed in 1986 and reprinted in 1991. He has a section on Finland that provides the most information on Finnish Lugers that I have found so far. I have one that is a Century Arms import like Kyrie's, and marked in the same manner except that it has the Finnish replacement barrel made by Oy Tikkakoski (I particularly wanted one with the Finn barrel). It is the same length as the early DWM 7.65 barrels, 120mm, but is much "fatter" due to the 9mm caliber. I am looking for a grip or just the brass unit marking disk, found on some of the Finnish Lugers. All of the pictures of these disks for Army unit Lugers that I have seen are for machine-gun companies of rifle battalions. I missed out on a nice one in an auction about a year ago. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

06-20-2002, 10:06 PM	#13
Luke User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: NC - USA Posts: 1,239 Thanks: 0 Thanked 18 Times in 6 Posts	Thanks for your help and comments. Luke __________________ "Peace, if possible; truth, at any cost." . . . Martin Luther

06-21-2002, 09:05 AM	#16
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 736 Times in 483 Posts	Luke, You may also want to check out Ezell's "Handguns of the World" as he has an excellent chapter on Finnish pistols. The only matching M23 luger that I've owned with the brass unit ID disc, was a mismatched Century import that I "boosted" and sold as such. The matching DWM commerical toggle assy was one that I had in stock and the ID grips came out of John Martz's junk box at a Great Western show. __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 lugerdoc@charter.net

06-19-2002, 05:13 PM	#4
Jan C Still User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Box 240188, Douglas, Alaska, 99824 Posts: 463 Thanks: 0 Thanked 52 Times in 32 Posts	Luke Axis Pistols has some information on Finnish Lugers (p308-310) as does Weimar Lugers (p13,29, and 32). On page 311 of Weimar Lugers there are listed a series of articles in Guns and Ammo, AUTO MAG and the Naval Institute Press by G. C. Stevenson concerning Finnish Lugers. He also completed a Masters Thesis covering extensivr research in Finland on the same subject (cant remember the title). Jan C. Still

06-19-2002, 05:14 PM	#5
Jan C Still User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Box 240188, Douglas, Alaska, 99824 Posts: 463 Thanks: 0 Thanked 52 Times in 32 Posts	Luke Axis Pistols has some information on Finnish Lugers (p308-310) as does Weimar Lugers (p13,29, and 32). On page 311 of Weimar Lugers there are listed a series of articles in Guns and Ammo, AUTO MAG and the Naval Institute Press by G. C. Stevenson concerning Finnish Lugers. He also completed a Masters Thesis covering extensivr research in Finland on the same subject (cant remember the title). Jan C. Still

06-19-2002, 09:14 PM	#6
Roadkill User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 1,632 Thanks: 1 Thanked 28 Times in 17 Posts	Just curious since this Finnish luger came up, how would a Luger operate in extremely cold temperatures? I believe the Lahti had an accelerator to help with extraction in these conditions, the Germans had to strip all oil & lubricants from all weapons due to freezing, added it when they heated up. Seem to me that a Luger would not be a reliable firearm, the toggle action would be more prone to freeze up than a straight rear recoil type. A little frozen moisture could really lock one up in several places. RK

06-19-2002, 10:52 PM	#7
Jerry Harris User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Central Ohio Posts: 64 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	RK, Though we don't hear it often, the Luger does have some things going for it on reliability. The toggle lockup is actually pretty simple. If the breech closes, it's locked - no additional parts involved. You can see and reach the breechblock and both toggle links. If the breech doesn't close, you can slap the toggle down and develop a huge closing force in the last part of the motion. The slide automatics hide their lockup parts inside. The tilt-barrel link and meshing grooves of the 1911, as well as the locking blocks and camming pins of the Beretta and P-38, have inaccessible voids where ice can form out of sight and out of reach. I don't know beans about actual low-temperature experimental results, but I suppose the Finns got some, and perhaps weren't too disappointed.

06-20-2002, 11:41 AM	#8
Roadkill User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 1,632 Thanks: 1 Thanked 28 Times in 17 Posts	Thank you sir, outstanding info. As to what you were doing on a range in that temperature, well..., I guess there is an opposite to the phrase "only mad dogs & Englishmen go out in the mid day sun" RK [img]cool.gif[/img]

06-20-2002, 12:37 PM	#9
Doubs User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Byron, Georgia Posts: 1,670 Thanks: 769 Thanked 1,611 Times in 525 Posts	A few years back when Century Arms imported the Finnish Lugers, I managed to get one being sold as a "U-Fix-Em". It came minus the magazine and firing pin. Otherwise, it was complete and all major parts matched serially. It had well-worn wood grips and was missing the unit disc. The top of the front sight had been filed down a few thousands of an inch. The finish was a dull blue, almost like a parkerized finish. It was in 7.65mm, short barrel and the serial number was four numbers and a suffix letter that fell in the proper block of pistols sold to Finland in the mid-1920's. The "SA" in a square frame was stamped on the left forward receiver side. The bore was excellent. It was very accurate and completely reliable. There was one odd thing about it that I believe was done to improve cold weather reliability. The breech block had a small hole drilled from the bottom into the firing pin chamber. If the original firing pin was of the old type (unfluted), the forward movement of the pin may have been retarted slightly by the air being pushed out of the firing pin hole. Any lubricant on the firing pin would tend to seal the air in even more and the bottom hole was, in my opinion, to allow air to escape and speed the fall of the firing pin. I may be wrong in my assumption and I'd like to hear other opinions about the purpose of the extra hole. I sold the pistol to a gentleman associated with the "Cruffler's" board and he may still have it.

06-20-2002, 01:57 PM	#10
Roadkill User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 1,632 Thanks: 1 Thanked 28 Times in 17 Posts	Doubs, this could have been a pre fluted firing pin method of allowing gas/pressure from a hot primer to escape prior to firing pin damage. Tacfoley, no offense intended but I don't know what the difference is between an Englishman and the others. I always thought that Great Britain = England= British = English. RK

06-20-2002, 03:43 PM	#11
Doubs User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Byron, Georgia Posts: 1,670 Thanks: 769 Thanked 1,611 Times in 525 Posts	Roadkill, that's certainly a possibility. I wonder if other Finnish Lugers have been so modified? As to the question of who's British and who's English, the answer is that ALL English are British but not all British are English. e.g., A Scot, a Welshman and an Irishman are all British Subjects by virtue of their countries being part of the "British Empire". However, none are English because they are not from England.

06-20-2002, 05:54 PM	#12
Roadkill User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 1,632 Thanks: 1 Thanked 28 Times in 17 Posts	Thanks for getting me straight. Oh well, the good thing about being from Alabama is folks don't get their feelings hurt when you say something dumb, not as if they expect any better. RK

06-20-2002, 10:42 PM	#14
Jerry Harris User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Central Ohio Posts: 64 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Tacfoley, Thanks for the first-hand cold shooting report, and the fascinating description of graphite powder lubrication before it was a commercial product!

06-20-2002, 10:54 PM	#15
Doubs User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Byron, Georgia Posts: 1,670 Thanks: 769 Thanked 1,611 Times in 525 Posts	[quote]Originally posted by Roadkill: <strong>Oh well, the good thing about being from Alabama is folks don't get their feelings hurt when you say something dumb, not as if they expect any better. RK</strong><hr></blockquote> RK, somehow I doubt that you've ever said anything "dumb". Besides, I learned about the German use of "Reserves" from you! (I also lived in England for six years so I know a little about the English - British thing). [img]smile.gif[/img]

06-21-2002, 09:41 AM	#17
Johnny Peppers User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Calion, Arkansas Posts: 1,042 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	The topic of the fluted firing pin comes up ever so often, but is there any documentation that the fluting was done to protect the firing pin from a pierced primer? One of the tests given the .45 Luger was to fire it with a pierced primer. The action was found to be normal after the firing, and this was certainly before the fluted firing pins were introduced. All references that I have seen indicate the fluting was done to allow an escape for buildup between the breechblock and the firing pin. One of Georg Luger's patents was for the fluting of the firing pin in a rifle bolt to prevent the obstruction of grease in the bolt assembly, and this was in 1893.

06-21-2002, 07:14 PM	#18
Roadkill User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 1,632 Thanks: 1 Thanked 28 Times in 17 Posts	Sir, My last name is Grady, shortened in the 1820s, from the obvious, the family coat of arms is from Ireland,(vulneratus non victus)and my great grandfather lost a leg at the Battle of Atlanta while an infantryman with the 4th Alabama Inf.in 1964.Thanks for your ancestors supporting my ancestors. RK

06-21-2002, 09:32 PM	#19
Thor User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Rio Rancho, New Mexico Posts: 4,583 Thanks: 958 Thanked 970 Times in 276 Posts	I am American dude with ancestors that came from Ireland and Germany, that loves Lugers and good people! An American that first and foremost is a Christian! They tell me some of my ancestors were from Cork Ireland and Leipzig Germany! I dont know whether to enjoy Irish Whisky or a Good German Doppel Bock! Heck, I will have both and a good Ale that my friend Terry might like. We are all friends here. I have met some really great people talking Lugers! Man......am I lucky! I only wish I could go shooting Lugers with the Road man and Mr Terry! Wouldnt that be a fun! <img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" /> <img src="graemlins/c.gif" border="0" alt="[ouch]" /> __________________ Thor's Luger Clinic http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/ Ted Green (Thor Yaller Boots) 725 Western Hills Dr SE, Rio Rancho, NM 87124 915-526-8925 Email thor340@aol.com ----------------------------------- John3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

06-21-2002, 09:38 PM	#20
wterrell User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Colorado Posts: 1,096 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	My ancestry is Scott (McClanahan). My wife is Scott (Stewart, Duncan). We watch you islanders with interest. __________________ Noli me vocare, ego te vocabo, wes --------------------